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I need advice on pushing 16mm 1 stop


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#1 Sergi Vilanova

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 01:35 PM

Hello everyone.

Some years ago, I pushed the 7274 (200T) by 2 stops, up to 800, to shoot in a street market at night in Singapore. I liked the results a lot. It was VERY grainy and contrasty, but it suited the film very well.

Now; I haven't pushed in 16mm. ever since (mainly because I didn't needed it) but for an uncoming job I am considering to do it; but only by one stop. Mainly because I'll be in a very low light situation with almost no film lights and also because I think that some higher contrast and slight grain might be good for the job.

I don't want to use 500 ASA because in 16mm. I don't really like its grain/low contrast ratio, but I was wondering how the new 200T or 250D stock might look pushed one stop.

Too much grain?

If anyone has any experience on it, I'd really apretiate any opinions about it.

Thanks a lot

sergi
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#2 Zulkifli Yusof

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 02:31 PM

Hey

Any chance of seeing this particular footage? I'm a Singapore citizen and I certainly would love to see this grainy shot of yours. I'm sure it looked like an old film footage since most street markets in Singapore have a "traditional" look to it!
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#3 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:09 PM

I don't want to use 500 ASA because in 16mm. I don't really like its grain/low contrast ratio, but I was wondering how the new 200T or 250D stock might look pushed one stop.

A general rule is pushing adds contrast and grain, Myguess is that if the films are both of the same generation, the 500T would look slightly less grainy than 250 pushed one stop, and shot at 500. the pushed would be more "snappy".

The pros with experience may have more guidance however.
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#4 K Borowski

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:17 PM

A general rule is pushing adds contrast and grain, Myguess is that if the films are both of the same generation, the 500T would look slightly less grainy than 250 pushed one stop, and shot at 500. the pushed would be more "snappy".

The pros with experience may have more guidance however.


This is a tough one. I'd say there'd be about equal grain, with higher contrast for the 250 and better shadow detail for the 500. It all depends though. If I were shooting 16 normally, I'd rate the 500 at 250 if I had the light.

Now, keeping in mind that this information is from the '70s before T-grain, and applies to B&W, I have an issue of Petersen's Photographic that says there were pros shooting Panatomic-X or maybe it was Ilford's equivalent of Pan-F 50 at that time, and, using a special speed-increasing developer, were able to derive a true 2-stop speed gain with grain less than the true-400 speed Tri-X film. I believe the developer was called perfection super speed developer, and it was either its own developer or some sort of additive.

With ECN-2 you're just extending the time in the first developer for a 1 stop push, so I doubt there'd be a full stop of true speed gain, if there were any at all. You're better off shooting 500 at its box speed, or at 250 if you can afford to light to a suitable stop at that exposure index to cut down on grain. *Maybe* 100- or 200T pushed a stop would have less grain than 500T.

Regards,

~Karl Borowski
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#5 Sergi Vilanova

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 06:41 AM

This is a tough one. I'd say there'd be about equal grain, with higher contrast for the 250 and better shadow detail for the 500. It all depends though. If I were shooting 16 normally, I'd rate the 500 at 250 if I had the light.

Now, keeping in mind that this information is from the '70s before T-grain, and applies to B&W, I have an issue of Petersen's Photographic that says there were pros shooting Panatomic-X or maybe it was Ilford's equivalent of Pan-F 50 at that time, and, using a special speed-increasing developer, were able to derive a true 2-stop speed gain with grain less than the true-400 speed Tri-X film. I believe the developer was called perfection super speed developer, and it was either its own developer or some sort of additive.

With ECN-2 you're just extending the time in the first developer for a 1 stop push, so I doubt there'd be a full stop of true speed gain, if there were any at all. You're better off shooting 500 at its box speed, or at 250 if you can afford to light to a suitable stop at that exposure index to cut down on grain. *Maybe* 100- or 200T pushed a stop would have less grain than 500T.

Regards,

~Karl Borowski



Well, thanks everyone ore those useful advices.

Thing is, my director does want some grain, or at least he says he is comfortable with it. This is a really low budget shoot and I'll have almost no lighting.
So I guess my point is not so much in terms of grain or no grain, because I know there will be some, but which way through it you think it would look more iteresting:
1- 500T, slightly grainy but flatter
2- 200T pushed 1 stop with may be more grain but snappier and more contrasty.

So the real question I guess is: between these two options, how much grainer the 200T pushed one stop is opposite to the 500T.

Thanks again
sergi
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#6 Sergi Vilanova

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 07:09 AM

Hey

Any chance of seeing this particular footage? I'm a Singapore citizen and I certainly would love to see this grainy shot of yours. I'm sure it looked like an old film footage since most street markets in Singapore have a "traditional" look to it!


Hi,

Wow! I shot that stuff may be seven years ago, when I was a student at Ngee Ann Polytechnic, at the Bugis market. So I don't really know where that is now, but I my self would love to watch it again

it didn't really looked like old footage, but more like a "seventies documentary" or something like that.

sergi
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#7 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 08:20 AM

Would there be enough time to shoot some comparison tests?
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#8 Frank Barrera

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 08:38 AM

how about this- shoot 7218 AND push it one stop. You'll get the grain , the contrast AND the speed.
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#9 Sergi Vilanova

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 11:40 AM

how about this- shoot 7218 AND push it one stop. You'll get the grain , the contrast AND the speed.



Yes, well, I must admit that I really haven't thought about that one. Thing is, wouldn't that be TOO much grain?

On the other hand, if I think about it, what I don't really like of th 7218 is that is too flat for its grain (and I LOVE the 5218) if I push it it'll get contrastier... mmmh... intresting

It's too bad production can't afford any tests...

thanks again
sergi
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#10 Zulkifli Yusof

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

Wow! I shot that stuff may be seven years ago, when I was a student at Ngee Ann Polytechnic, at the Bugis market. So I don't really know where that is now, but I my self would love to watch it again

it didn't really looked like old footage, but more like a "seventies documentary" or something like that.

sergi


Oh man, I'm studying in the same school now! I'm in my final semester already! Which program were you in? The diploma or the advanced diploma course?

With a little mention to with some of my lecturers, I think I can view your footage after all! What was your project titled?
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#11 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:18 PM

Yes, well, I must admit that I really haven't thought about that one. Thing is, wouldn't that be TOO much grain?


7218 isn't too bad when it's been pushed a stop. There's some grain obviously, but it's intercuttable with stock that's even been overexposed and pulled a stop. You may just want to shoot some 7218 and process normal so you get the grain at least, I've always been happy with the stock's contrast. However, Fuji's 250T had some really stark contrast when I shot some a couple months ago. I was really surprised and impressed. It depends on what style you're going for I guess.
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