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Super 16, Arri PL, Kinor-16 SX-2M with crystal sync motor


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#1 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 03:37 AM

I wish to inform:

The modified Super 16 Russian professional cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M with Arri PL lens mount, crystal sync speed motor and new version of set of accessories, with additional 2 pcs of 120 m ( 400 ft ) and 2 pcs of 30 m ( 100 ft ) film magazines available for sell now.

After a some requests of potential buyers of Kinor camera, the seller add of two 120 m ( 400 ft ) film magazines.

The seller, my colleague from St-Petersburg.
You can order of new 10-100 zoom lens with 0.75 front optical attachment ( zoom rate 7.5-75 mm ) from this seller too.

"Prof Movie camera Kinor Super 16 , PL mount , ARRI"
E-Buy Item number: 150085817418

The camera have modified film gate on Super 16 format, re-centered for Super 16 Arri PL lens mount, modified ground glass position and size.

The electrical motor have new style microprocessor controller with 6 crystal sync speeds 8,12,16 , 24, 25 , 29.97 fps, and digital film counter .
If you will need, you can ask about other list of speeds too.
The film counter can work in feet or in meters .

The camera have universal compendium ( bellows style ), This modified compendium from 35 mm cine camera Konvas-1M and have possibility of adjust a size of compendium for lenses.

The set of camera have new battery with charger.

You can ask me about technical sides of this camera.

--------------------

Best regards
Olexandr
olex@a-teleport.com

= Russian professional cine cameras
http://www.geocities...pair/repair.htm
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#2 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 12:39 AM

I wish to inform:

The modified Super 16 Russian professional cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M with Arri PL lens mount, crystal sync speed motor and new version of set of accessories, with additional 2 pcs of 120 m ( 400 ft ) and 2 pcs of 30 m ( 100 ft ) film magazines available for sell now.

After a some requests of potential buyers of Kinor camera, the seller add of two 120 m ( 400 ft ) film magazines.

The seller, my colleague from St-Petersburg.
You can order of new 10-100 zoom lens with 0.75 front optical attachment ( zoom rate 7.5-75 mm ) from this seller too.

"Prof Movie camera Kinor Super 16 , PL mount , ARRI"
E-Buy Item number: 150085817418

The camera have modified film gate on Super 16 format, re-centered for Super 16 Arri PL lens mount, modified ground glass position and size.

The electrical motor have new style microprocessor controller with 6 crystal sync speeds 8,12,16 , 24, 25 , 29.97 fps, and digital film counter .
If you will need, you can ask about other list of speeds too.
The film counter can work in feet or in meters .

The camera have universal compendium ( bellows style ), This modified compendium from 35 mm cine camera Konvas-1M and have possibility of adjust a size of compendium for lenses.

The set of camera have new battery with charger.

You can ask me about technical sides of this camera.

--------------------

Best regards
Olexandr
olex@a-teleport.com

= Russian professional cine cameras
http://www.geocities...pair/repair.htm




What synergy! I was toying with starting a follow-up thread to the "Should Kodak invest in a new camera thread" based on your claim that a Kinor Super-16 camera could be both quiet, film at differnent speeds, and even do time-exposure, but perhaps not at all once, meaning one would choose either the multiple frame rate functions or one could choose to set up the camera to do single frame and time-exposure.

I would like you to do a brief research on the Bell & Howell MS45 modular camera. Here is a link Bell & Howell MS 45 on Wikipedia

The side of the camera has a removeable modular plate. The plates made for the camera do different functions. Would it be possible to make a modular design for the Nikor, one module would handle the multiple filming speeds and crystal sync, the other module would handle single frame, time-lapse, and time exposure?
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#3 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 03:16 AM

What synergy! I was toying with starting a follow-up thread to the "Should Kodak invest in a new camera thread" based on your claim that a Kinor Super-16 camera could be both quiet, film at differnent speeds, and even do time-exposure, but perhaps not at all once, meaning one would choose either the multiple frame rate functions or one could choose to set up the camera to do single frame and time-exposure.

I would like you to do a brief research on the Bell & Howell MS45 modular camera. Here is a link Bell & Howell MS 45 on Wikipedia

The side of the camera has a removeable modular plate. The plates made for the camera do different functions. Would it be possible to make a modular design for the Nikor, one module would handle the multiple filming speeds and crystal sync, the other module would handle single frame, time-lapse, and time exposure?


We must understand, If we wish have modern Super 16 cine cameras, we must create of camera from ? from the beginning. We must create full design of body, outside view, view of handles of control.
Yes, I support idea of modular camera. The idea can be similar of Arri Studio, Arri Lite, Arri 416.
But, this will not cheap project, because, the all parts will need create from bland print.
And, the camera will not cheap too.

The other side, if we think about minimum price of camera and project, we must take present old camera and modify for modern technical request.
Why old camera ( Kinor, Arri, Eclair ) have not high price, because, this cameras made a many years ago.
If you will manufacturing Kinor-16 camera with factory drafts now, The camera will have high price, because, this is high precision manufacturing.
But, this is possible and price will less from new design.

The idea about modular Kinor-16 very interesting.
Kinor-16 have exchangeable electrical motor and had a AC, DC, crystal sync motors.
That's why, possible to create of single frame, time lapse motor.
But, this was two different modules with special motors and electronics of control.
The use of one DC motor and dual electronics ( normal speed and single frame ) not possible, because, the technical design features don't can use of fast speed DC motor for single frame mode.
From other side, I not see big problem to replace of normal speed motor on single frame motor.

The camera can have one body and two version of motor modules with electronics inside.
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#4 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 09:19 AM

We must understand, If we wish have modern Super 16 cine cameras, we must create of camera from ? from the beginning. We must create full design of body, outside view, view of handles of control.
Yes, I support idea of modular camera. The idea can be similar of Arri Studio, Arri Lite, Arri 416.
But, this will not cheap project, because, the all parts will need create from bland print.
And, the camera will not cheap too.

The other side, if we think about minimum price of camera and project, we must take present old camera and modify for modern technical request.
Why old camera ( Kinor, Arri, Eclair ) have not high price, because, this cameras made a many years ago.
If you will manufacturing Kinor-16 camera with factory drafts now, The camera will have high price, because, this is high precision manufacturing.
But, this is possible and price will less from new design.

The idea about modular Kinor-16 very interesting.
Kinor-16 have exchangeable electrical motor and had a AC, DC, crystal sync motors.
That's why, possible to create of single frame, time lapse motor.
But, this was two different modules with special motors and electronics of control.
The use of one DC motor and dual electronics ( normal speed and single frame ) not possible, because, the technical design features don't can use of fast speed DC motor for single frame mode.
From other side, I not see big problem to replace of normal speed motor on single frame motor.

The camera can have one body and two version of motor modules with electronics inside.



So it sounds like one would be better off with two Nikor camera bodies, one with the time-lapse and time-exposure function, the other for more conventional filming. Just switch out the lens and other essentials when necessary.

I feel in a way that this is a circle back to the invest in a new run of cameras idea. A modular camera could give one maximum flexibility with a Super-16 design, assuming that a new run of super-16 cameras were of a large enough quantity to keep the price down. I don't know where the threshold price point is, a different marketing idea could be Kodak matches "dollar per dollar" up to $10,000 dollars towards a Modular Super-16 camera purchase on a $50,000 dollar purchase of film. That would allow the camera to be sold at 20 grand, minus a 10 grand rebate, rather than free as I had originally suggested in the Kodak thread.

How many Nikors are out there as it currently stands, are they all in use or do they need these modifications? I could see Kodak offering an "incentive" to those such as yourself to get these cameras upgraded.

I don't know if anyone here has used the Polaroid still camera that was originally made in 50's & 60's and was converted to take modern day film. Over 10,000 of these cameras were converted and many were used on movie sets for checking exposures. The film, shutter, and f-stop were set to match the filmstock being used in the motion picture cameras, this helped ensure exact results. The point being that Polaroid sold a ton of film because of their Polaroid cameras were being converted for modern day applications.
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#5 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 09:34 AM

So it sounds like one would be better off with two camera bodies, one with the time-lapse and time-exposure function, the other for more conventional filming. Just switch out the lens and other essentials when necessary.


As for me, the better of have one body and two motors.
The procedure of replace of motor on body very easy, need unscrew 3 screws, install of other motor and set of 3 screws.

But, if you wish, you can use of two of bodies with two motors, the first body with " standard"motor, the second, with " time lapse".
At any time, you can change of motors.
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 10:05 AM

As for me, the better of have one body and two motors.
The procedure of replace of motor on body very easy, need unscrew 3 screws, install of other motor and set of 3 screws.

But, if you wish, you can use of two of bodies with two motors, the first body with " standard"motor, the second, with " time lapse".
At any time, you can change of motors.



I looked on your website and saw specs for the crystal motor but not for the time-lapse/time-exposure function. Also, have you considered an anton bauer mount? I have a Dionic battery and they are super light (under two pounds) yet can power an E.N.G. camera (with recorder) for three hours. The only drawback is they output around 15.4 volts when fully charged, can your camera motor handle that level of voltage?

I also have the adapter that converts the Anton Bauer to 4 pin XLR, so even if the adapter was just to hold the battery in place and a short cable were run to the 4 pin XLR, that would be fine as well.
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#7 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 02:44 PM

I looked on your website and saw specs for the crystal motor but not for the time-lapse/time-exposure function. Also, have you considered an anton bauer mount? I have a Dionic battery and they are super light (under two pounds) yet can power an E.N.G. camera (with recorder) for three hours. The only drawback is they output around 15.4 volts when fully charged, can your camera motor handle that level of voltage?

I also have the adapter that converts the Anton Bauer to 4 pin XLR, so even if the adapter was just to hold the battery in place and a short cable were run to the 4 pin XLR, that would be fine as well.



I not support idea of make normal speed DC motor with time-lapse function.
I make many test and can tell, DC motor with reducer not good choose for time lapse mode.
DC motor have big inertia and the low speed mode with start-stop control don't have fixed time of exposing of every frame.
That's why, my idea, to use of stepper motor with microprocessor control of position of shutter disk.
I have a few test modules and if i will have real order of time lapse motor , i can finish of this project.
Today, i have many other ideas about crystal sync speed control and ideas about special additional devices for Konvas, Kinor motors. I think, this modules can be more interesting for users.

You have 15.4 v battery and with use with crystal sync motor.
I don't know, what power at ampere-hour have battery and what maximum current.
The motor can have current up to 5 A. The operating current of Kinor with 400 ft film magazine and film 2..2.5 A.
The motor will work with this battery, because, for fast speeds ( 48, 50 fps ) i recommend to use of 18 v battery ( 19,2 v ).
The electronics of motor have high power voltage regulator of main electronics and can have input up to 24 v.
We don't have a full details draft of anton bauer mount with size, from other side, this is rare lens and create of special lens mount for Aaton lenses, we not think.
Possible, on future, if will need and if this possible.
We think, Arri PL have many lenses and many cameras, thats' why, we choose of this type of lens mount.

The motor have standard polarity of 4 pin XLR connector, that's why, you can connect of any power source with charcteristics of 4 pin XLR power source standard.
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#8 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 03:36 PM

I not support idea of make normal speed DC motor with time-lapse function.
I make many test and can tell, DC motor with reducer not good choose for time lapse mode.
DC motor have big inertia and the low speed mode with start-stop control don't have fixed time of exposing of every frame.
That's why, my idea, to use of stepper motor with microprocessor control of position of shutter disk.
I have a few test modules and if i will have real order of time lapse motor , i can finish of this project.
Today, i have many other ideas about crystal sync speed control and ideas about special additional devices for Konvas, Kinor motors. I think, this modules can be more interesting for users.

You have 15.4 v battery and with use with crystal sync motor.
I don't know, what power at ampere-hour have battery and what maximum current.
The motor can have current up to 5 A. The operating current of Kinor with 400 ft film magazine and film 2..2.5 A.
The motor will work with this battery, because, for fast speeds ( 48, 50 fps ) i recommend to use of 18 v battery ( 19,2 v ).
The electronics of motor have high power voltage regulator of main electronics and can have input up to 24 v.
We don't have a full details draft of anton bauer mount with size, from other side, this is rare lens and create of special lens mount for Aaton lenses, we not think.
Possible, on future, if will need and if this possible.
We think, Arri PL have many lenses and many cameras, thats' why, we choose of this type of lens mount.

The motor have standard polarity of 4 pin XLR connector, that's why, you can connect of any power source with charcteristics of 4 pin XLR power source standard.



The lure of time-exposure and time-lapse for me is that it would be a low cost way to get into super-16mm film production while possibly creating stock footage time-lapse that can then pay for additional film and then some.
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#9 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 07:39 PM

Olex & Alessandro: With your cheaper interchangeable camera theory, what would you guys say about using a Krasnogorsk-style design. Since it would be smaller and more rugged. I've just always been thinking of that, and I guess theres intervalometers, but wouldnt a more compact design be better?

And Olex: Do you have, or build, or know anyone with Krasnogorsk 24FPS motors?
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#10 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 06:31 AM

Olex & Alessandro: With your cheaper interchangeable camera theory, what would you guys say about using a Krasnogorsk-style design. Since it would be smaller and more rugged. I've just always been thinking of that, and I guess theres intervalometers, but wouldnt a more compact design be better?

And Olex: Do you have, or build, or know anyone with Krasnogorsk 24FPS motors?


Krasnogorsk- project of amateur cine camera.
The design of transport mechanism of Kranosgorsk camera and Kinor camera similar of difference between bicycle and car.
I don't see of good long-range outlook with modifications of Krasnogorsk cameras from side of motor.
If you will connect of any electrical motor, you lost of all advantage of Kransogorsk camera ( small size, weight, easy design, easy operation , functioning at any condition ).
That's why, If you need camera with electrical motor, you need other camera, similar of Kinor-16.

The mechanism of Krasnogorsk camera don't have registration pin and time lapse footages can have amateur quality.
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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 09:04 AM

It sounds like you need pre-orders to fully pursue the time-exposure concept. The Eumig time-lapse function incorporates an actual light sensor that is directly under and separate from the lens. Somehow it actually relates to the lens because if one zooms in the light sensor reacts to the change in light level. To attain greater control over the light sensor, one can either cover a varying percentage of the sensor with black electricians tape to slow down the exposure time, or have full control via an LED light with variable output. One covers the sensor and then the variable LED is used to determine exposure time. In essence, the "electronics" involved have been simplified (I think???) by use of a light sensor rather than having an outboard panel. The variable LED and the power supply needed to run it is extremely simply to build and can run off of a C batteries for a very long time.

Is the motor needed to run a time-lapse, time-exposure version of the Nikor internal to the camera, could a light sensor be used to signal the film when to advance, would that be a "simpler" design?
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#12 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 10:35 AM

It sounds like you need pre-orders to fully pursue the time-exposure concept. The Eumig time-lapse function incorporates an actual light sensor that is directly under and separate from the lens. Somehow it actually relates to the lens because if one zooms in the light sensor reacts to the change in light level. To attain greater control over the light sensor, one can either cover a varying percentage of the sensor with black electricians tape to slow down the exposure time, or have full control via an LED light with variable output. One covers the sensor and then the variable LED is used to determine exposure time. In essence, the "electronics" involved have been simplified (I think???) by use of a light sensor rather than having an outboard panel. The variable LED and the power supply needed to run it is extremely simply to build and can run off of a C batteries for a very long time.

Is the motor needed to run a time-lapse, time-exposure version of the Nikor internal to the camera, could a light sensor be used to signal the film when to advance, would that be a "simpler" design?



I think, we will need divide of all ideas of electronics on a few version.
The initial version of time lapse control.
The electronic will control of time of " shutter disk open" and time of " shutter disk close ", count of number of shoots and control of time waiting between series of shooting.

The next version of electronic can have auto exposure mode.
This can be auto control of aperture position, or auto control of time " shutter disk open".
This can be system with full computer control with measring of volume of light, calculate of aperture position and time of " shutter disk open ", record of this date and control of cine camera.
Any case, this can be complex system and will have high price.

Today, i think to create of initial system of time lapse motor control.
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#13 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:14 AM

I think, we will need divide of all ideas of electronics on a few version.
The initial version of time lapse control.
The electronic will control of time of " shutter disk open" and time of " shutter disk close ", count of number of shoots and control of time waiting between series of shooting.

The next version of electronic can have auto exposure mode.
This can be auto control of aperture position, or auto control of time " shutter disk open".
This can be system with full computer control with measring of volume of light, calculate of aperture position and time of " shutter disk open ", record of this date and control of cine camera.
Any case, this can be complex system and will have high price.

Today, i think to create of initial system of time lapse motor control.


You may find what works for time-lapse is not necessary for time-exposure.

Assuming there is easy access to the f-stop ring, I don't think it's absolutely necessary to actually offer automatic exposure of the f-stop ring for Time-exposure work. For Time-lapse work that is not time-exposure, perhaps then you would want that automatic exposure capability, as long as the automatic feature can be turned off for doing manual exposure work as well.

For Time-exposure work, the light sensor can be used as the automatic exposure function since it can be set to a default setting. For instance, the T.E. light sensor could be factory set. Let me just give a default example of 2 frames per second, ASA 100, 1/8th of second shutter open, at f 4.0. When the camera is "chirping" at that 2 frames per second rate, one knows the approximate automatic exposure factory default setting. If one is concerned the image is being overexposed, a retractable cover could be easily built that incrementally covers the time-exposure light sensor to see if the frame rate instantly starts slowing down or not as the T.E. light sensor is covered. If the camera runs at 2FPS even when half of the T.E. light sensor is covered, we then know that the image is being overexposed and we can calculate by how much by what percentage of the T.E. light sensor is covered before the 2 frames per second rate starts to slow down. If the camera is running at one frame per second when the light sensor is not covered, we instantly know that half of the light is present and the camera operator can then either use an LED inserted over the T.E light sensor to kick the speed back up to 2 frames per second. They would also shift the f-stop open one additional stop, or they can leave it as is if their choice is to override the T.E. light-sensor and underexpose it by a stop.
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#14 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 03:43 PM

For Time-exposure work, the light sensor can be used as the automatic exposure function since it can be set to a default setting. For instance, the T.E. light sensor could be factory set. Let me just give a default example of 2 frames per second, ASA 100, 1/8th of second shutter open, at f 4.0. When the camera is "chirping" at that 2 frames per second rate, one knows the approximate automatic exposure factory default setting. If one is concerned the image is being overexposed, a retractable cover could be easily built that incrementally covers the time-exposure light sensor to see if the frame rate instantly starts slowing down or not as the T.E. light sensor is covered. If the camera runs at 2FPS even when half of the T.E. light sensor is covered, we then know that the image is being overexposed and we can calculate by how much by what percentage of the T.E. light sensor is covered before the 2 frames per second rate starts to slow down. If the camera is running at one frame per second when the light sensor is not covered, we instantly know that half of the light is present and the camera operator can then either use an LED inserted over the T.E light sensor to kick the speed back up to 2 frames per second. They would also shift the f-stop open one additional stop, or they can leave it as is if their choice is to override the T.E. light-sensor and underexpose it by a stop.


My personal opinion, the need to measuring of volume of light with modern digital outside light meter at version of incident light.
The TTL light measuring can have big volume of error.
Any case, the some shooting situations give me possibility to measuring of volume of reflected light only.

We can use a some ideas.
The first idea, you measuring of light at time of begin of shooting and time of end of shooting.
After, you programming of comtrol module and install of fixed time of exposure function for every shoot.

The other idea. Create of special device and special programm for measuring of volume of light before of every shoot and calculate and install of time of exposure before of every shoot.
But, the create of programm for calculate of exposure function not easy procedure.
I will be glad to take modern exposure meter with digital computer output and connect with base module of control.
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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 04:23 PM

My personal opinion, the need to measuring of volume of light with modern digital outside light meter at version of incident light.
The TTL light measuring can have big volume of error.
Any case, the some shooting situations give me possibility to measuring of volume of reflected light only.

We can use a some ideas.
The first idea, you measuring of light at time of begin of shooting and time of end of shooting.
After, you programming of comtrol module and install of fixed time of exposure function for every shoot.

The other idea. Create of special device and special programm for measuring of volume of light before of every shoot and calculate and install of time of exposure before of every shoot.
But, the create of programm for calculate of exposure function not easy procedure.
I will be glad to take modern exposure meter with digital computer output and connect with base module of control.


You're not necessarily looking for optimal exposure because time-exposure most of the time involves filming lights, and something moving, either the lights are moving, or clouds, or some combination thereof. One can feed twice the amount of light and still have a very acceptable image, that is the nature of time-exposure.

If you come across a Eumig camera with time-exposure you may want to study how the light sensor works. Nizo's time-exposure design is clever as well. Nizos have a time-lapse function that doubles as a time-exposure function by sliding a red lever. Slide the red lever over and the time-lapse and time-exposure functions reverse. For instance, if one was shooting 1 frame every 10 seconds via the time-lapse function, by sliding the red lever over, the time-lapse function inverts and the camera is instantly shooting 10 second exposures. While I find this method clever, I think the Eumig time-exposure light sensor is slightly more useful because I can instantly guage the overall light level by seeing how quickly the film advances to the next frame. I can then easily vary the time-exposure increments and I simply move the f-stop down one stop as the exposure time doubles in length.
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#16 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 03:24 AM

You're not necessarily looking for optimal exposure because time-exposure most of the time involves filming lights, and something moving, either the lights are moving, or clouds, or some combination thereof. One can feed twice the amount of light and still have a very acceptable image, that is the nature of time-exposure.

If you come across a Eumig camera with time-exposure you may want to study how the light sensor works. Nizo's time-exposure design is clever as well. Nizos have a time-lapse function that doubles as a time-exposure function by sliding a red lever. Slide the red lever over and the time-lapse and time-exposure functions reverse. For instance, if one was shooting 1 frame every 10 seconds via the time-lapse function, by sliding the red lever over, the time-lapse function inverts and the camera is instantly shooting 10 second exposures. While I find this method clever, I think the Eumig time-exposure light sensor is slightly more useful because I can instantly guage the overall light level by seeing how quickly the film advances to the next frame. I can then easily vary the time-exposure increments and I simply move the f-stop down one stop as the exposure time doubles in length.


Yes, the time lapse shooting not easy procedure, and need more detailed study of principle of calculate of time of exposure.
I not wish use any mechanical devices for control and calculate of this time, This must be full mucroprocessor control only.
But, need study more, create and test.
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#17 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 05:37 AM

Yes, the time lapse shooting not easy procedure, and need more detailed study of principle of calculate of time of exposure.
I not wish use any mechanical devices for control and calculate of this time, This must be full mucroprocessor control only.
But, need study more, create and test.


Would a copy of the schematic from the eumig camera help?
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#18 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 05:12 PM

Would a copy of the schematic from the eumig camera help?


Yes, of course, I will be glad of study of any technical information and schematic of other versions of time lapse comtrol of motor.
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Broadcast Solutions Inc

Wooden Camera

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Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Opal

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Glidecam

Technodolly

Abel Cine

The Slider

Tai Audio

CineTape

Metropolis Post