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JVC HD100u - 24p FCP & Slo-Motion


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#1 Mitch Lusas

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 03:27 AM

Hello, two quick questions. First, how difficult is it to capture JVC's true 24p onto the latest version of Final Cut Pro?

Second, I'm planning a slo-motion shot with this camera. We'll be using the P+S Technik with Zeiss lenses. I was thinking of shooting at 60p, and importing into FCP at 24p (not 23.97). I've tried looking up information online about this, but have not found the best results.

Any help, advice, or experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
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#2 Tim Dashwood

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:47 PM

Hello, two quick questions. First, how difficult is it to capture JVC's true 24p onto the latest version of Final Cut Pro?

It is very easy now. You can capture natively in FCP version 5.1.2.
However... a word of warning: use the JVC ProHD tape and NEVER mix brands in the tape transport. You will want to avoid any possibility of a dropout or data loss when capturing natively.
FCP is VERY sensitive to the slightest dropout when capturing HDV1 and will split the clip at the slightest hint of a hiccup in the stream. Keep a head cleaner cassette handy and run it after every 10 tapes or so.

Second, I'm planning a slo-motion shot with this camera. We'll be using the P+S Technik with Zeiss lenses. I was thinking of shooting at 60p, and importing into FCP at 24p (not 23.97). I've tried looking up information online about this, but have not found the best results.

You can capture 480P60 on the HD100 or 720P60 with the HD200/250. Either way you will have to capture the 60P stream with a m2t capture utility and then transcode it into a Quicktime codec (uncompressed, AIC, motion-JPEG, blackmagic, etc.) 480P60 can be easily uprezzed to 720P60 with 'OK' results using Mpegstreamclip.
Next, you will open the clip(s) with Cinema Tools and CONFORM them to the desired frame rate. This will create instant overcranked slow-motion quicktime clips that you can directly import into FCP.
You should always use 23.98 (23.976) as a desired frame rate when working with 24P on video. Even film to tape teleciné transfers are done at 23.976. It is only advisable to work in true 24fps if you are doing a filmout and your DVD version will be retransferred from an intermeditae print or neg. This will give you an accurate runtime on film - but not on video.

You can see a test I did a couple weeks ago using this method with the HD200.
http://web.mac.com/t...CA13U_Test.html

I also have a step-by-step guide to overcranked slo-motion posted here.
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#3 Mitch Lusas

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:22 AM

Hey Tim,

Thanks so much for the information. I appreciate your point by point explanation. And the sample footage looks great. Very crisp.

Quick question, did you rent the PL Adapter or buy it? If rent, where did you get it from? Why did you choose this adapter over the Redrock or P+S Technik?

Thanks for all your help Tim,
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#4 Tim Dashwood

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:28 AM

Quick question, did you rent the PL Adapter or buy it? If rent, where did you get it from? Why did you choose this adapter over the Redrock or P+S Technik?

The adapter isn't available to purchase yet. The one I used was a protoype on display at HD House during Sundance. It said "No. 2" on it.
I will be doing some in-depth testing on this prototype again soon. Compared to the Redrock the advantage is that the whole rig is much shorter. You don't use a zoom lens in macro mode as a relay. Instead the adapter attaches directly to the 1/3" bayonet mount.
The advantage over all of the other 35mm cine lens adapters is that the HZ-CA13U doesn't use a ground glass, so there is very little light loss.
The main difference is that the HZ-CA13U is designed to equal 16mm frame size instead of 35mm. This means that you will have to open up a couple extra stops to get the same short DOF at the equivalent FOV on 35mm. Personally I don't mind this. I'm used to working in 16mm so it isn't a huge adjustment for me.
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#5 Raymond O'Neil

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:43 PM

Hi Tim, could you please give a more detailed workflow for capturing 480P60 (tru slo mo?). I have footage captured at HDV-SD60P, which is the same thing as 480P60 I guess, but I can't figure out how to import everything into final cut timeline so it is tru slo mo?


In some places I read that I need to conform the footrage in Cinema Tool, others said I can do it in MPEG streamclip, but there are no detailed instructions.

Thanks
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#6 Walter Graff

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:46 PM

I don't see it necessary to clean heads that often. Stick with one formulation is a good idea. Having used three differnt 100/110s and a JVC deck for dumping to FCP I have never had a hiccup, nor ever cleaned the heads. So perhaps the person who is telling you this is being overly cautious or simply has a problem with his camera. But as is said the latest FCP does it natively and if you dont have the latest, fear not HDVxDV does it just as good as FCP and even allows you to rewrap HDV as any other format in quicktime eliminating HDV in edit offering more stability in edit.
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#7 Mitch Lusas

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 12:34 AM

If anyone wants to see what the JVC-HD100u can do with slow-motion, just send a personal email telling me to get them online. We did camera tests running at 24p (HD), 30p (HD), and 60i (Standard Def). From the shoot, we converted using Cinema Tools. The lighting is a bit dark, as we were not testing the lighting but merely the slow motion effect. When we shot, we were forced to use 24p take due to issues with the 30p and 60i takes (massive let-down as the 30p would have looked great).
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#8 Tony_Beazley

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 02:02 PM

Mitch what was the massive let down you encountered?

Thanks

Tony B.
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#9 Mitch Lusas

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 10:46 PM

Hello,

I've had some requests for the 30p and 60i slo-motion results (these were camera tests to see how the JVC-HD100u handled slo-mo and how the conversion process worked), so here are the links:

http://www.mitchlusa...m/slomo-30p.mov
http://www.mitchlusa...m/slomo-60i.mov

These will take a little while to download as they are approx 50MB and 100MB respectively. Due to this size, they will probably only remain online until May 2007.

These results were achieved by converting the footage in MPEGStreamclip, then importing in Cinema Tools where they were converted to 24p. The 30p version is HD, whereas the 60i version is SD.

Tony, the massive let down was not in the conversion process but in production design. We were running in overtime when we actually went for the shot, and we didn't that as the takes progressed, a towel used to prop up the actors head could be seen. This was not noticed until post-production. The only take where the towel was not seen was in the first take with 24p. So, in the end we had to do a total fake slo-mo via FCP. Not very impressive, but it tells the story.

I just wanted to thank Tim Dashwood for your help and the details on the adapter.
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#10 Tim Dashwood

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 01:07 AM

Your shots look good Mitch. And thank you for the acknowledgement. It is nice to know that people are getting use out of the info I post.

A couple notes:
Just to clarify, when you use "HDV-SD60" mode on a HD100 it isn't "60i" it is actually 60P (480P60). 60i is only 30 fps (29.97fps) and 60P is actually 60 fps (59.94fps.) This is why it is very difficult to use interlace footage for slow motion with 1080i systems without some field line doubling. The maximum frame rate on 1080i is 30fps. Rodriguez managed to do it somehow for Once Upon A Time in Mexico with 1080i60 footage shot on HDCAM. Maybe he used a piece of interpolation software to create in-between frames. If you need to do a similar thing with your 24P shot, you should look into the Twixtor plug-in for FCP or Shake.

Also, (when you have the opportunity for more light in a scene) try to keep in mind the mechanics of film camera shutters and frame rate. A standard shutter is set to 180°, so normally 24fps = 1/48th of a second exposure. Increase that to 48fps, and the exposure time decreases to 1/96th of a second. 60fps = 1/120th of a second exposure and so on. This relationship maintains consistent motion blur on the edges no matter how much you overcrank.
I can see from your samples that it you must have used a 1/60th shutter for the 60P material. I understand why, considering you needed as much exposure as possible in this situation, I just wanted to mention it.
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#11 Timothy Lee Ray

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 10:17 AM

Hey! good morning all.

I'm new to the forum and I guess this is where I should be hanging around since I've never worked with a film camera except my Kodak slr 35mm still.

For the last few years I've been fixated on this camera (JVC HD100u) Just to get started and have something to shoot with I bought a Canon Optura xi and it's fine for my shoooting style of run an gun and for pratice with uploading to the internet in different codecs and editng in FCP but I have an idea and I want this JVC HD100u for personal and professional use.

What are your thoughts about renting compared to buying? if you rent would it be better to rent a more exspensive camera like the new red instead of the JVC HD100u.

I want to own because of the flexibility of having the camera ready.

I've your and looked at you're reels very nice and my only other questions is what are the major drawbacks of this camera. I have some shhoting I want to do in the Mohave Desert, just early sunrise and sunset backgrounds.

Thanks

Tim
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#12 Timothy Lee Ray

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 10:21 AM

good morning all.

I'm new to the forum and I guess this is where I should be hanging around since I've never worked with a film camera except my Kodak slr 35mm still.

For the last few years I've been fixated on this camera (JVC HD100u) Just to get started and have something to shoot with I bought a Canon Optura xi and it's fine for my shoooting style of run an gun and for pratice with uploading to the internet in different codecs and editng in FCP but I have an idea and I want this JVC HD100u for personal and professional use.

What are your thoughts about renting compared to buying? if you rent would it be better to rent a more exspensive camera like the new red instead of the JVC HD100u.

I want to own because of the flexibility of having the camera ready.

Enjoyed your reels, very nice, and my only other questions is what are the major drawbacks of this camera. I have some shhoting I want to do in the Mohave Desert, just early sunrise and sunset backgrounds.

Thanks

Tim

Edited by Timothy Lee Ray, 25 May 2007 - 10:24 AM.

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#13 Paolo Ciccone

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 03:02 PM

Sub $6000 cameras like the HD100 make it feasible to own your own camera but you have to ask yourself what kind of use you are planning to have. The advantage of having the camera with you all the time is the amount of experience that you can gain by shooting HD every time you feel the need. You can dig into the technical parts of the camera at the pace you want and get familiar with the whole workflow.
Comparing the HD100 with RED is really apples and oranges, the specs of the two cameras are widely different. At current time I don't think there are any RED cameras in the hands of rental house yet.
Before you move from the Optura to a very expensive professional camera be sure that you are familiar with the practise of shooting with a pro-level camera. A lot of people find the transition challenging since there is no auto-focus and so run-and-gun can might not be the best situation for the HD100. As you probably know, the HD100 has a fully manual lens. Auto-iris is available but the iris ring is mechanical and has f-stop markings instead of being the electronic control of consumer cameras. Because the lens is removable you have to pay special attention to check back focus every time you transport the camera or when you have temperature changes.

So, if you plan of keeping the camera for some time and shoot several videos then owning it will definitely help you. The knowledge that you gain by becoming familiar with a professional camera will apply easily to higher-end cameras like the XDCAM, F900 or RED when you'll have the opportunity to work with them and will make the money invested in the rental more effective. One word of advice, don't rent the camera the day before the shoot. You will not have enough time to be familiar with it and that can ruin your shot. If you have the opportunity get to a rental house where they have the camera available all the time and where the people there are availble to show you how the camera works.

If you end up using the HD100 I suggest to install the TrueColor configuration that I designed. The stock configuration of the HD100 gives colors that are less vivid and not as close to reality ad they should be. Fortunately the camera allows for a lot od adjustability for the color matrix. TrueColor is the closest 1:1 configuration that I could figure out for this camera. See http://www.paolociccone.com

Good luck.

Edited by Paolo Ciccone, 25 May 2007 - 03:06 PM.

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#14 Timothy Lee Ray

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 06:43 PM

Thank you Paolo,

I'll keep your site in mind when I get the camera.
I understand the basics with video camera operations, I guess I wasn't to clear. I"ve been involved with video cameras since 88 and the last 7 years working for a network here in LA as camera op. The optura was the only thing I could afford two years ago, so I went ahead and bought it, so that I could create my my own little thoughts on tape. I like it it's a good camera and has some functions that are manual, like focus, and shutter speed, and iris control.

If you had the money. 6 thousand, would you buy this camera JVC HD100u ? What I see being done with it is very impressive I loved the black and white Or is the Canon xl1 or 2 or a sony pd 1oo just as good? I want an interchangable lense.


I have a powerbook g4 with FCP5 loaded on it and want to do some slow motion also.



I'm going to be using the camera working on a few documentaries, and interviews, and 1 film as soon as I clear up some details.



sorry to all for the double post above.

Edited by Timothy Lee Ray, 25 May 2007 - 06:47 PM.

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#15 Tim Dashwood

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 06:58 PM

I want an interchangable lense.
I have a powerbook g4 with FCP5 loaded on it and want to do some slow motion also.

If you want interchangable lenses and slow motion, then the JVC ProHD cameras are really the only ones that fit the criteria in the under $6000 price range. For slow motion, the HD100 and HD110 can shoot overcranked 60fps in SD mode. The HD200 series can shoot overcranked 60fps in HD mode.

You will need FCP 5.1.2 to capture 720P24 natively. You can work only with 720P30 in FCP v5.0, however there are third party ingest solutions that require a few extra steps (but you lose TC.)
How fast is your Powerbook G4? I've successfully captured on the last version before the MAcbook Pros were released, but have not tested slower machines with native HDV ingest.
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#16 Paolo Ciccone

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 09:17 PM

Hi Tim.

I guess the mention of the Optura made me assume that you were not familiar with higher-end cameras, sorry for that.

If you had the money. 6 thousand, would you buy this camera JVC HD100u ?

I did. I bought one in 2005, jut when it came out and did a lot of work with it. I still think that today it's an excellent camera for the price. It's also the only camera in its category, for what I know, that is truly progressive. In other words, the sensor works in progressive scan. I think it's a great deal. The slo-mo can be done by switching to 60fps in HD-SD50 mode. Basically it's a 50fps progressive at the sam evertical resolution of PAL which is 20% more lines that you would get with HD-SD60. When you upscale it to 720p it holds definition and you can enhance via After Effect's TimeWarp. It can lead to really nice effects. Also, if you use component out you can capture at 60fps full resolution. So, all in ll the camera has great features for the price.

What I see being done with it is very impressive I loved the black and white Or is the Canon xl1 or 2 or a sony pd 1oo just as good?

Well, those are SD cameras so it's really an unfair comparison. The HD100 leads to better images but it's a different technology.

BTW, I edited tons of HD100 footage on a 1.67gH PowerBook pro. It's not fast but it can be done.
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#17 Timothy Lee Ray

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 11:12 AM

Tim, Paolo, thanks, I think I'm in heaven and have finally found me the right forum to learn from.

My g4 17in. is 1.67ghz with 2 gigs of memory and a Graid 500gig external HD.
I'm waiting on some financing and then I can make my purchase. I think, from what I've seen, it's the right camera for me. Oh, I did hear that some people find the ear muff on the handle annoying?

Have a great holiday weekend and thanks for the imput.


Tim

Edited by Timothy Lee Ray, 26 May 2007 - 11:13 AM.

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#18 Paolo Ciccone

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 11:46 AM

Oh, I did hear that some people find the ear muff on the handle annoying?

It can be but it's easily removed, without tools, so it's not a big deal.

Take care.

--
Paolo
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#19 Scott Erlinder

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 07:32 AM

Anyone having a problem with DVHSCap lately in Mac to capture HDV-SD60P?

We're using Intel macs and, from what we can tell, the program sees the signal briefly (sees the bit rate) then stops capturing.
I've uses the DVHSCap/Mpegstreamclip/Cinematools workflow for a couple of years now and it's worked fine. I'm stumped...

Scott
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#20 alex humphrey

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:19 PM

old thread, but I worked this out a year ago and posted it at dvinfo net... but thought i would share it here as well.

JVC HD110 480p 60fps to slow motino 24 on a Mac platform.

1. OK shoot SD HDV 480p 60fps... DUH... on a JVC HD 1/10/100/110
2. Capture via iMovie. (FCP still doesn't and will never recognize this format)
3. Spark up Cinema Tools (FCP Studio 1 is what I have)
4. Batch Conform (Cinema Tools/File/Batch Conform/ (pick your footage clip) pick your frame rate (24)) Enter
5. open up your new slow motion conformed clip in your Quick Time Pro.
6. Export out of Quick Time Pro the clip as a quicktime movie 720p 24fps HDV.
7. Import the new clip into your new 24p 720p (60p 480p slowed down and uprezed original) HDV timeline in Final cut pro and it should look pretty good next to your normal 24fps 720p footage...
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