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#1 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 05:06 PM

Hey kids, I just got hired for a pretty well paying job (for a 15 year old :P), so I am looking very seriously at several different cameras. I'll be shooting extreme sports stuff, biking and skiing/snowboarding specifically. I may also look into someday renting the camera out to local productions or something of that sort. So far I have come up with:

<h1 class="itemTitle">Eclair NPR Super 16:
</h1>Looks like a pretty big camera, so maybe not the smartest for my purpose. Right now there's a kit with 3 mags, the camera body and the motor and the rods for like $1500.

K-3

I have read many good things about this camera on this site and others. Looks like it is pretty small and built like a tank. I'm assuming I cant go wrong for $250 shipped, since I could use it for a POV cam if worst came to worst.

Arri 16BL with Zoom Lens

Looks like a killer camera, comes with two 400 foot mags, blimp, new battery AND charger, matte box (which I will probably never use) and a crystal sync unit. Its a lot more pricey but it is new. 4,500USD and its got a 6 month warranty. I happen to know that a lot of ski shots are done with this, particularly by Gary Nate of Warren Miller Entertainment.

At the moment those are the only ones I am looking at but any suggestions would be great :D!
Oh yeah, is a matte box just an oversized lens hood?

Thanks,
DOry
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#2 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 05:46 PM

Another one is this:
Éclair NPR with Zoom Lens Camera Package

PACKAGE INCLUDES: 12-120mm Angenieux <li>(2)400 ft mags <li>Crystal motor w/variable speed <li>New battery with charger <li>Power Cable


Price: $3,900.00
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#3 Tim Carroll

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 05:54 PM

I'll be shooting extreme sports stuff, biking and skiing/snowboarding specifically. I may also look into someday renting the camera out to local productions or something of that sort.


Dory,

Let me strongly suggest that you avoid the NPR or Arriflex 16BL for what you say you want to shoot. If you really want to shoot extreme sports, skiing, snowboarding, biking, etc. then you don't need a sync sound camera, you need a camera that is lightweight and built like a tank. The NPR is a great camera, but I would never call it robust. The Arriflex 16BL is a robust camera, but I would certainly not consider it lightweight. I have never used a Kinor, so I really can't comment on it.

I would recommend you looking at an Arriflex 16S or S/B (and not just because I service them), but because with a 100ft internal load of film, the camera is extremely lightweight, is built like an absolute tank, and is very easy to hand hold. As a former bicycle racer, and amateur downhill skier, I would think you want something absolutely reliable, and as portable and maneuverable as possible. The Arriflex 16S and S/B have registration pins for absolute picture stability, and again, once set up properly, you can almost "pound nails with that camera" as a friend of mine says, though I wouldn't suggest doing that.

Just my 2 cents worth,
-Tim
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#4 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 07:38 PM

So something like this would be a good idea?

Arri S/B
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#5 Martin Yernazian

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 07:44 PM

I think something like the K3 will be better, I 've seen some of the converted to S16... really cool
good luck
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#6 Tim Carroll

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 08:00 PM

So something like this would be a good idea?

Arri S/B


That's the idea, but you can pick them up on eBay for alot less money and have them serviced and you are off to the races.

Visit my site to find out more about the camera and see images made with it:

Arri16S.com

While you are there you can also download free copies of the Instruction Manual, accessory manuals, and various other PDFs with information about the camera.

-Tim
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#7 Troy Warr

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 09:17 PM

Hi Dory,

Keep in mind that the K-3 is going to cost more than $250 to get running properly, unless you've come across a fantastic deal for a used camera. Even brand new straight from Russia, it will most definitely scratch your film. You'll want to get it overhauled by an experienced professional before you start using it. Some US-based places sell them already worked on (even sometimes with a Super-16mm gate already installed) for about $700-900. Also remember that the thing is spring-wound, which is great for simplicity's sake, but it will only run about 25 seconds on a full wind at the standard 24fps (far shorter if you overcrank). I think that you can still get your hands on a motor, but that will probably run close to another $1000.

The stock lens is decent, but a little cumbersome. The lever-based zoom is kind of cool, but it's a love-it-or-hate it kind of thing if you're used to a normal zoom ring. You might consider picking up a few Pentax SMC screw-mount lenses from KEH.com or eBay, or even an 8mm Peleng fisheye if you want extreme wide-angle and don't mind a little distortion (no vignetting, at least).

I owned a K-3 years ago, and they are built like tanks, but they're a little rough around the edges. You may get *very* lucky and pick up a model straight from Russia with no flaws, but that's unlikely, and you'll definitely want to run some test film through it first before shooting anything for real.

Best of luck to you!
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#8 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 09:26 PM

Thanks for the replies so far :)!!!

Tim, thanks for recommending the Arri 16, I think I'm leaning toward it. If I buy one off eBay how much will it cost for me to send it to you and have you check it over?
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#9 Tim Carroll

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:09 PM

Thanks for the replies so far :)!!!

Tim, thanks for recommending the Arri 16, I think I'm leaning toward it. If I buy one off eBay how much will it cost for me to send it to you and have you check it over?


The way I work is that if you want your camera serviced, you send it to me and I will inspect it free of charge. At that time I can tell you what kind of shape it is in and give you an estimate of what it would cost to set it back to factory specs and give it a good CLA (clean, lube and adjust). If you want to proceed, then I do the work, if not, I send the camera back to you. You only have to pay for shipping the camera to me and return shipping, you are under no obligation to have me do the work.

If you are considering purchasing a camera off of eBay I would recommend you read the section of my web site about "Purchasing an Arriflex 16S off of eBay", it will give you some ideas of what to watch out for.

If you get a camera in good shape, a complete overhaul may be as low as $600. If the rubber motor coupling needs replacement, that's about $75 more, and an eyecup is about $25. It all depends on the condition the camera is in when you purchase it. After the overhaul, you will have a camera that will last you for many years and give great images (provided you use good glass). ;)

Hope that helps,
-Tim
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#10 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 12:55 AM

I wouldn't recommend the NPR for any action/handheld kind of stuff. The camera body itself really isn't ergonomic at all.

If you can find a good Arri S/B, that would be ideal to me at least. You get some great lens options if it is in fact an "S/B", and I love its grip especially.

If you're doing a lot of rushed action sports stuff though, you may want to consider something that's easy to load and low maintenance. Such as a Bolex or the Scoopic, they're great and lightweight as well, for handheld work.
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#11 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 01:50 AM

Tim-
Thats great to know! If I get the Arri I will defenetly send it up to you ;)!

Jonathan-
I wont be doing rushed action, I will be able to make my subjects do what I wan to a point (I hate to call it directing in this scenario).
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#12 Allen Achterberg

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:00 AM

another good option for you would be in my opinion the Ikonoskop A-Cam SP-16. It's a Super 16 Camera, and it's actually brand new. Take a look http://www.ikonoskop...llery/index.asp

I think you'd go to Pro8mm to pick one up if in the USA. The only downside in my opinion is that it does not have a reflex finder! but if you later on grab another 3-6k you can have DU-ALL Camera in NY install either a Video Tap, or a reflext viewfinder. Comes with a 9mm Lens, which is cool to have for extreme sports.

just letting you know that exists. Good luck on your Choice of Camera! Also, you can browse eBay, sometimes you can find a 16SR for around 5-6k with a lens and necessary accessories.


All the Best
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#13 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:30 AM

Jonathan-
I wont be doing rushed action, I will be able to make my subjects do what I wan to a point (I hate to call it directing in this scenario).


Hey, nothing wrong with trying to maintain some control when you're shooting on an expensive format :)
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#14 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 04:45 AM

What about the Arri 16SR series? They seem to be (along with the S/B) the leading choice for extreme sports stuff. Warren Miller uses them, Freeride Entertainment uses them, I think Radical Films uses them... Any thoughts?
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#15 Allen Achterberg

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 04:55 AM

a 16SR would be a very good option for you. if you lucky you can find one for the price of the Ikonoskop A-Cam, I'd go with the SR personally.
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#16 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:10 AM

a 16SR would be a very good option for you. if you lucky you can find one for the price of the Ikonoskop A-Cam, I'd go with the SR personally.


If you were shooting this in Video, perhaps betacam sp, you most likely would have a second camera, a lighter, pick up and go camera, either digital 8 or mini-dv. Likewise, I think it would be wise to have a second camera, a Super-8 camera, either a "crash" camera that is low cost, or a good quality second camera. The reason is there may be times when your main camera is on sticks grabbing a telephoto shot and there may be an opportunity to quickly grab a run and gun shot and them immediately go back to your camera that is on sticks. However, if you've never shot in Super-8, it might be difficult to assess the best way to use it.
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#17 Tim Carroll

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 09:03 AM

What about the Arri 16SR series? They seem to be (along with the S/B) the leading choice for extreme sports stuff. Warren Miller uses them, Freeride Entertainment uses them, I think Radical Films uses them... Any thoughts?


Dory,

You need to go to a camera house and look at, pick up, hold, pretend to shoot, with these different cameras. The Arriflex 16SR is a fantastic camera (used to own one) but if I was working by myself as the entire film crew, shooting extreme sports handheld, and not being an experienced cameraman like the folks at NFL Films, it would not be my first choice. It is much bigger and heavier than the little 16S/B. Again, the only way you are going to see and know this is by seeing and handling the cameras yourself.

-Tim
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#18 Ole Dost

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 11:16 AM

a 16SR would be a very good option for you. if you lucky you can find one for the price of the Ikonoskop A-Cam, I'd go with the SR personally.


I would suggest the russian Kinor 16 sx-2m. It´s pin registered and delivers rocksteady pictures. The Mags are interchangeable as with the Arri SR and the Éclairs. The big advantage for filming sports: You can choose between two different types of Mags, 400 ft and 100ft. With the 100ft Mag and a wide angle prime, it is very handy -much more then the SR or NPR. The biggest advantage: It offers same picture quality, but a used device is MUCH cheaper than Arris and Éclairs. I got mine with a Zoom lens and some Mags for 500 $!!
For more informations about the Kinor, it´s lenses, it´s advantages and disadvantages I wrote an article, that has been translated into English language. You can download the article from this site:
www.smallformat.schiele-schoen.de
At the moment, there are some offers on Ebay for a very reasonable price. See the item numbers 150047244947 and 150085388466 and 290079729190.
I´m using the Kinor and I don´t regret it so far.
Best regards,
Ole
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#19 Dory Breaux DP

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:38 PM

If you were shooting this in Video, perhaps betacam sp, you most likely would have a second camera, a lighter, pick up and go camera, either digital 8 or mini-dv. Likewise, I think it would be wise to have a second camera, a Super-8 camera, either a "crash" camera that is low cost, or a good quality second camera. The reason is there may be times when your main camera is on sticks grabbing a telephoto shot and there may be an opportunity to quickly grab a run and gun shot and them immediately go back to your camera that is on sticks. However, if you've never shot in Super-8, it might be difficult to assess the best way to use it.

I would shoot video, except:
extreme slo-mo looks terrible
Once you get below freezing, the electronics start to not work to well. I had a camera die on my because it was too cold.

Dory,

You need to go to a camera house and look at, pick up, hold, pretend to shoot, with these different cameras. The Arriflex 16SR is a fantastic camera (used to own one) but if I was working by myself as the entire film crew, shooting extreme sports handheld, and not being an experienced cameraman like the folks at NFL Films, it would not be my first choice. It is much bigger and heavier than the little 16S/B. Again, the only way you are going to see and know this is by seeing and handling the cameras yourself.

-Tim


Good point. I'll see if I can find somewhere to actually physically "play" with one... not likely though cause I'm not exactly in camera capital of the world.
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#20 Tim Carroll

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:28 PM

Good point. I'll see if I can find somewhere to actually physically "play" with one... not likely though cause I'm not exactly in camera capital of the world.


Where are you located? On the east coast there are many camera houses in New York, west coast there are many in L.A., midwest, there is Visual Products just southwest of Cleveland, Ohio, and camera houses like SMS and others in Chicago. Would be worth a day trip before you plunk down your money.

Also, is there a film school somewhere within 200 miles of you? Many of them have Arriflex 16S cameras, and some have 16SR cameras as well that they might let you look at if you ask them nicely.

There are few places in the States that are more than a couple hundred miles from motion picture cameras.

-Tim
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