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Film Look Comparison Page?


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#1 Jens Ziehn

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:25 AM

Hello.

I'm currently preparing a film project that consists of several episodes filmed in different styles. Each of them but the last one will be shot on digital video and be edited to look like an old black and white film (budget reasons), so that's not the problem.

For the last episode I'm looking for some film stock that should have a classic look about it (perhaps like 2-strip technicolor but I'm not really sure) and especially delivers red colors very well. Preferably 16mm, I guess, as the image should look slightly grainy reduced to DVD quality.

I'm looking for a website or a book that shows samples of film stocks so that I could get an idea of what stock I could use.

Any hints or suggestions would be most appreciated. Unfortunately my knowledge of film stocks isn't far beyond 8mm Kodachrome, so perhaps this whole request is for some reason absurd. Thanks for the patience.

J. R. Ziehn
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#2 Jens Ziehn

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 02:41 PM

I don't want to seem impatient (I actually got more than enough time to find a proper film stock), but if there's any flaw about my original question that keeps people who might be able to help from replying, I'd be truly grateful if someone told me. Thanks.
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#3 Nick Mulder

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 04:33 PM

hmmm yep, no answers here can be frustrating - it happens occasionally for various reasons, I suffer from asking very esoteric technical questions that ramble however I suspect the reason for none here is probably sue to the amount of times this question or similar has been asked ... Have you tried searching the forums ?

From memory the answer is usually that the newer Kodak Vision2 stocks are made to all look the same, so as to allow filmmakers the mix them easily in different lighting situations. Then there is the Fuji look compared to Kodak look discussion which pops up with the usual suspects throwing their viewpoints, which depending on who you listen to go one way or the other (or no where at all, which isn't necessarily a bad thing). Its also very hard to trust peoples monitor calibrations so that a website could provide accurate information regarding color, gamma etc...

As for the 'classic' look, I'd be a purist and attempt to source some old stock (of which I have zero experience in compared to others who frequent these pages) but thats because I have the time to play with it and am not restricted by timeframes/budgets etc... The look you're after can most probably be achieved in transfer - do you yourself have any reference frames from films that have the same look you are after ?

Also, what stocks are you able to source ?
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 10:03 PM

Not every bit of information needed is on the internet, although it seems like that sometime.

If I knew of such a comparison page showing samples, I would have given you the link. Now I suppose I could spend some time searching on Google or Yahoo for such a page, but then, you could do that yourself.

Have you been to the Kodak and FujiFilm websites?
http://www.kodak.com...cts/index.jhtml
http://www.fujifilmu...n...=1&product=

They usually have demo DVD's they can send out to you, although personally I can't tell much about a stock unless I project onto a big theater screen -- on a TV set, they all look good!
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#5 Jens Ziehn

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 12:08 PM

First of all, thanks for the replies.

hmmm yep, no answers here can be frustrating - it happens occasionally for various reasons, I suffer

from asking very esoteric technical questions that ramble however I suspect the reason for none here is

probably sue to the amount of times this question or similar has been asked ... Have you tried searching

the forums ?


Yes, I actually have, as well as searching the web via Google (this was how I found this page in the

first place). I didn't find anything but perhaps I tried the wrong key words. All the requests I found

about film stocks were very professionally written expert questions, at least as far as I could tell. I,

unfortunately, am nothing but an absolute beginner.

As for the 'classic' look, I'd be a

purist and attempt to source some old stock (of which I have zero experience in compared to others who

frequent these pages) but thats because I have the time to play with it and am not restricted by

timeframes/budgets etc... The look you're after can most probably be achieved in transfer - do you

yourself have any reference frames from films that have the same look you are after ?

Also, what stocks are you able to source ?


Using actual old stock is an option indeed, I'm just afraid it would be pretty hard to obtain and costly

to develop. Does "transfer" mean here that I should shoot the film on average 35mm or 16mm film and then

"transfer" it to some special stock afterwards to get this effect?

Currently I don't have a sensible example of what I'm looking for, I don't have seen anything quite like

it myself, but my knowledge of pre-1970 movies is very limited as well, mostly to much earlier

black-and-white flicks. But I'll take this as an advice and keep my eyes open for some example to post.

As for the graininess I'm after, I think Rob Zombie's "The Devil's Rejects" is a nice example. You can

still see the grain of the 16mm film on DVD and that gives the image a more detailed but uneasy look.

http://media.outnow....movie.fs/09.jpg

It's quite a bit more than DVD quality in this grab but you can see the grain on DVD just as well. And

I'm afraid that we'll just manage a TV/DVD release with our film.

As for the colors, I might suggest something like this:
http://www.widescree...echnicolor3.htm

But all the pictures are very old, the resolution is quite low so they might not be very useful as

examples. Also, the red colors seem a little too weak.

Last but not least, I'm not sure what film stocks I might or might not be able to source. In fact, I'm

yet to find some film company that will finance my project. At the moment I'm trying to find out how much

money I'd need to put this thing into practise the way that I have it in mind. As most of it will be

pretty cheap, I'm rather confident that they will be willing to pay a bit more for the very last episode.

But I couldn't tell what "a bit more" means in dollars. Not very helpful, I know, but I seriously have no

clue.

Not every bit of information needed is on the internet, although it seems like that sometime.

If I knew of such a comparison page showing samples, I would have given you the link. Now I suppose I

could spend some time searching on Google or Yahoo for such a page, but then, you could do that yourself.

Have you been to the Kodak and FujiFilm websites?
http://www.kodak.com...<br />dex.jhtml
http://www<br /><br ...u...=1&product=

They usually have demo DVD's they can send out to you, although personally I can't tell much about a

stock unless I project onto a big theater screen -- on a TV set, they all look good!


Thanks for the links and the suggestions. I did try Google and I did try both Fuji and Kodak but I didn't

find any honest facts. Most people want little grain, a high resolution, true colors. And all companies

try to suggest that all of their products deliver these qualities. And the sample clips they had online

all had either a very low resolution or showed sequences that were so artificially lit that the true

qualities of the stock were impossible to see. Demo DVDs however seem a very interesting idea, especially

as, as I've said, my film won't get a theatrical release, anyway. I never heard of this but it seems a

sensible thing to offer. I'll try to get one.

Thanks again for the help, it's most appreciated.
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#6 Nick Mulder

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:57 PM

I have to zap off right now so I'll look at those links later today, but by 'transfer' I mean telecine. Your final output is going to be on DVD right ? So Telecine or scanning is how you get your film into either a video or file format that you can edit/effect etc... In this stage because your negative has so much information you have the ability with a colorist to tell the telecine machine to accentuate certain colors and drop others and have great control over the gamma/contrast/curves of the resultant output (Digibeta, mini DV etc...) - I have only been to a couple of supervised transfers and they happen pretty fast due to being so costly so I'm sure there are others here who know much more
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#7 Keneu Luca

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:59 PM

I have about four 400' rolls of Kodak 16mm 7240. It's an old reversal stock, very grainy. I shot a test and it almost came out looking like super 8 film, it was so grainy. The image screams vintage 60's and 70's.

I might be willing to part with it.
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#8 Nick Mulder

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:34 AM

After seeing your second link (the first one is broken) I'd suggest having a look here and here

Brian Rose a forum member here has done some pretty interesting stuff with resurrecting old B&W film processes that may achieve the look you are after... Its a process and a half but quite unique compared to so much of the stuff you see produced today

Edited by Nick Mulder, 15 February 2007 - 02:35 AM.

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#9 Jens Ziehn

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 09:06 AM

I have to zap off right now so I'll look at those links later today, but by 'transfer' I mean telecine. Your final output is going to be on DVD right ? So Telecine or scanning is how you get your film into either a video or file format that you can edit/effect etc... In this stage because your negative has so much information you have the ability with a colorist to tell the telecine machine to accentuate certain colors and drop others and have great control over the gamma/contrast/curves of the resultant output (Digibeta, mini DV etc...) - I have only been to a couple of supervised transfers and they happen pretty fast due to being so costly so I'm sure there are others here who know much more


Ah, okay, thanks. I never thought that you can make notable manipulations in telecine but this surely would be a very versatile way to deal with the footage.

I have about four 400' rolls of Kodak 16mm 7240. It's an old reversal stock, very grainy. I shot a test and it almost came out looking like super 8 film, it was so grainy. The image screams vintage 60's and 70's.

I might be willing to part with it.


Sounds very interesting. Do you have any digital scans of those tests? I just read that 400' make 11 minutes at 24FPS. Correct? Also, at what price would you sell these? As I still haven't got any budget for the project yet I can't tell whether I'll be able to afford them at all, but I'm interested.

After seeing your second link (the first one is broken) I'd suggest having a look here and here

Brian Rose a forum member here has done some pretty interesting stuff with resurrecting old B&W film processes that may achieve the look you are after... Its a process and a half but quite unique compared to so much of the stuff you see produced today


Thanks, those pictures look really cool. That's really surprisingly much like what I was looking for.

Although you won't need it anymore, the picture from the first link would have been this one:
http://outnow.ch/Med...e...=1400&h=932

Again, a big thanks to all of you. All of this is really helpful to me.
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#10 Nick Mulder

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 09:15 AM

those pictures look really cool. That's really surprisingly much like what I was looking for.

And you might only need to do two-strip, like kinemacolor - Less work than he did...
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#11 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 11:36 AM

And you might only need to do two-strip, like kinemacolor - Less work than he did...


Kinemacolor is not two-strip. It's two color alternate frame additive.

Perhaps you were thinking of Cinecolor? or Magnacolor? Or the first Trucolor process?

Modifying a camera for bi-pack.
Finding a clear base ortho film and coating the emulsion with a red filter layer.
Sounds like a lot o'work.

---El Pedante

Edited by Leo Anthony Vale, 15 February 2007 - 11:39 AM.

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#12 Jan Weis

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 12:39 PM

Its super 8 but I think you'll find it satisfactory:

http://www.westsider....com/clips.html
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#13 Jens Ziehn

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 11:59 AM

Its super 8 but I think you'll find it satisfactory:

http://www.westsider....com/clips.html


Interesting clips, thanks. Then maybe Super8 could be an option as well. Might also depend on the budget, I guess.
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