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DVX for images,pd-150 for sound????


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#1 Daniel Carruthers

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:26 PM

Hi
Im about to shoot a indie feature on the dvx100a. And the director wants the sound to go into his pd-150
so the dvx can be free of xlr cables. we are gonna have long running pov shots.
So my question is will the audio sync up later?? I'll be shooting in 24pa, and the pd-150(audio) in 60i.
will this cause any noticable problems???
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#2 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 11:48 PM

Adam Wilt on his site ( http://www.adamwilt.com/24p ) observes an audio lag of about 1/60 sec with footage shot in 24PA mode.
So it might be reasonable to expect to see a similar difference when you run the sound from the PD150 with the video from the DVX100a.
However it is easily corrected.
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#3 Daniel Carruthers

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 11:55 PM

Adam Wilt on his site ( http://www.adamwilt.com/24p ) observes an audio lag of about 1/60 sec with footage shot in 24PA mode.
So it might be reasonable to expect to see a similar difference when you run the sound from the PD150 with the video from the DVX100a.
However it is easily corrected.


Thanks

So if you edit on a 24p timeline will that correct the 60i pd-150 audio into 24p? making the audio in sync with the 24p footage
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#4 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 12:00 AM

EDIT: specific link : http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#AVsync

Thanks

So if you edit on a 24p timeline will that correct the 60i pd-150 audio into 24p? making the audio in sync with the 24p footage


Well, a 24P extractor should help, but you can always just nudge the audio a couple of frames.
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#5 Rory Hanrahan

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 05:04 PM

You may want to rethink using the PD150 for audio capture. The pre-amps on the camera are noisy as hell, and any audio you get will definitely suffer. I don't know that the DVX sounds any better, but after using the 150 to teach a class for a couple of years, I can assure you that sound is one of its weakest points.
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#6 Alecks Purifoy

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 07:59 PM

Adam Wilt on his site ( http://www.adamwilt.com/24p ) observes an audio lag of about 1/60 sec with footage shot in 24PA mode.



The delay was fixed in the "A" revision, this only plagues those of us with the old school DVX100p models... it makes my old baby feel ancient!

If you want boat loads of help with your DVX check out www.dvxuser.com and poke around

Also check out Barry Green's DVX Book, Amazon Link Its going to give you a full break down on every setting and scene file mode on your DVX, 24p workflow tips ect. Its an awesome book, and the DVD has some cool settings to get those "Magic Bullet" looks in camera.


Hope I could help,

Alex
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#7 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 03:22 PM

The delay was fixed in the "A" revision...

It would seem that the problem hasn't been entirely fixed. He claimed to have found a lag of about 1/60th sec. ( http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#AVsync )

So, a quick summary of what I see based on FCP and Premiere tests and on DHR-1000 jog-mode playback:

Camera, Mode Audio Advance

PD150, 60i 0 fields, perfect!
VX1000, 60i 1 field
DSR-500, 60i 1 field
DVX100, 60i 2 fields
DVX100, 30p (played as 60i) 3 fields
DVX100, 24p (played as 60i) 3 - 4 fields
DVX100, 24p (played as 24p) 4 fields / 2 frames
DVX100A, 60i or 30p 0 fields, perfect!
DVX100A, 24p lags about 1/60 sec


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#8 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 05:55 PM

You may want to rethink using the PD150 for audio capture. The pre-amps on the camera are noisy as hell, and any audio you get will definitely suffer. I don't know that the DVX sounds any better, but after using the 150 to teach a class for a couple of years, I can assure you that sound is one of its weakest points.

same observations over here,

The DVX soundinputs (not the builtin mics) are definitely better, beside the noisy preamps the PD150 gets trouble with certain mics and mixer(think it's a impedance thing), you can get nasty distortions even at low levels...

AVOID PD150 for sound!!!
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#9 Alecks Purifoy

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:36 PM

It would seem that the problem hasn't been entirely fixed. He claimed to have found a lag of about 1/60th sec.




Ahh cool, thanks for the correction, it looks like he would be allright if he was rolling in regular 24p and not PA
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#10 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:58 PM

It sounds like it might be a really bad idea to use the PD150. (Don't shoot with it myself, so can't really comment.)

...so the dvx can be free of xlr cables.


If you're worried about cables, how about running all your mics to the mixer & feeding the mixer out to a wireless transmitter, receiver is strapped to the camera or worn by the camera operator. (A-la ENG/EFP sound..)
Has the advantage of avoiding excess cables, is cheap & keeps the PD150 out of the equation.
Down side: runs everything through a wireless transmitter which is going to compress it slightly.
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#11 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:19 AM

I would record on the DVX or if you can on a computer with audiointerface, a fieldrecorder or any digital device with ok soundinputs with minimum 48kHz 16bit
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#12 David W Scott

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:57 AM

The DVX audio section is very solid. I recorded location sound for a feature on it. Sounded great, no issues.

I wouldn't use wireless to transmit your only location sound. It's not high enough fidelity, and you can get dropouts that will haunt you later. Better to put up with even a single XLR cable to your DVX.

If you are hell-bent on recording dual-system sound, then use a good cheap portable recorder. You can often get really good deals on rental DAT machines. (Look into your local film co-op. Mine has DAT for $18/day, Nagra (analog) for $14/day, MiniDisc for $5/day.) Or you can buy your own:

Marantz portable recorder with XLR inputs

No matter what you use to record, sync shouldn't be an issue. None of the solutions listed above will have any audio drift, including the PD150. You simply need to be able to align picture and sound at the start of every take (hint: use an old-fashioned slate with a clapper). Even the Nagra, which is analog and doesn't have the benefits of digital timing, should be crystal-synched to deliver perfectly consistent recordings.

Remember, it doesn't matter what frame rate, or sampling rate, or tape speed you record sound at. None of it will affect sync. The only key to maintaining sync is to ensure that the audio recording runs at the SAME speed, from beginning to end of every recording.
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#13 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 11:36 AM

The DVX audio section is very solid.


I only had once a problem on DVX with high out-put mics (beta 57 and beta 58), one on a singer and the other on guitar-amp. I had to put the input gain knob very low, the level-meter wasn't peaking at all but I ended with distortions... Maybe it's better to put sensitivity to "line" instead of "mic" with such mics and levels...
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