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Matching Sony DSR camera


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#1 Robert Scarfe

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 07:22 AM

I sometimes have to work with other users or news crews using their DSR 570 / 450
Is it possible to ?downgrade? the SDX 900 to give a more Sony look ? less saturated with a slight green look to flesh tones, the SDX seems to be a tad more saturated and flesh tones look a bit more reddish, are any scene files available for download?, or values available to experiment with.
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#2 Michael Nash

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:50 AM

I don't know about downloadable scene files for that particular look, but maybe there are some out there.

Otherwise, there are a couple ways to go about controlling the color.

The most precise (but most time consuming) method is to use the SDX's color matrix. There you can adjust the hue and saturation of 12 steps of color. You have to set up both a Sony camera and the SDX and adjust colors (off a chip chart) until they match.

A much more coarse adjutsment can be done through the RGB Gamma levels. This basically adjusts the color balance of the midtones, while leaving white balance and black balance alone.

In my experience with the SDX and Sony cameras though, I had to go the opposite direction from what you describe. The Sony cameras I was trying to emulate were generally warmer, with weaker blues and mustardy yellows, compared to the more "natural looking" Panasonic. I did a quick adjustment by raising the Red Gamma. Maybe the DSR cameras are setup differently, or just have a different look than other Sony's.

I guess you could try using the skin detail function to adjust hue/saturation of skintones as well, although the overall color quality may still not match.
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#3 Jeff Regan

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 04:28 PM

In my experience with the SDX and Sony cameras though, I had to go the opposite direction from what you describe. The Sony cameras I was trying to emulate were generally warmer, with weaker blues and mustardy yellows, compared to the more "natural looking" Panasonic. I did a quick adjustment by raising the Red Gamma. Maybe the DSR cameras are setup differently, or just have a different look than other Sony's.


Michael,

My experience reflects yours, as a long time Sony rental house. I have always found the Sony BVP, BVW, DSR models to be more plus magenta than Ikegami or Panasonic. I have BVP-550WS, DSR-500WS and 450WS cameras and did an emulation of an SDX 900 and DVX 100A for DSR-450 scene files. I used a MacBeth chart and did an overlay on a vectorscope and was able to get very close to the SDX 900 colorimetry via the 450's matrix. The SDX 900 was much more plus blue and cyan than the DSR-450. I also found the 900 to be a tad softer than the 450, it was about the same difference as an SD camera with and without a Pro35 adapter. The DVX 100A was so plus green that the multi-matrix was necessary(or what Panasonic calls color correction).

It used to be that I could take a camera like an Ikegami HL-57 and a Sony BVP-550 and turn off matrix on both and get a good colorimetry match on a MacBeth chart. Those that say that they can't get a specific look from another brand of camera just don't know how to use the tools available on modern DSP cameras, IMO. Of course there are plenty of lens differences and differences in saturation in FIT vs. IT chips, but all of these can be corrected for as well as gamma, knee and detail.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

Edited by Jeff Regan, 28 February 2007 - 04:30 PM.

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#4 Michael Nash

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:59 PM

Michael,

My experience reflects yours, as a long time Sony rental house. I have always found the Sony BVP, BVW, DSR models to be more plus magenta than Ikegami or Panasonic. I have BVP-550WS, DSR-500WS and 450WS cameras and did an emulation of an SDX 900 and DVX 100A for DSR-450 scene files. I used a MacBeth chart and did an overlay on a vectorscope and was able to get very close to the SDX 900 colorimetry via the 450's matrix. The SDX 900 was much more plus blue and cyan than the DSR-450. I also found the 900 to be a tad softer than the 450, it was about the same difference as an SD camera with and without a Pro35 adapter. The DVX 100A was so plus green that the multi-matrix was necessary(or what Panasonic calls color correction).

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com



Thanks Jeff,

I recently took a stab at trying to match a Sony D35 and a DVX-100B, and got them reasonably close. But the Sony is very magenta in warm neutrals (tan, etc), almost like it's out of phase (camera is setup in camcorder config, not CCU). Of course it's weak in the green saturation, especially compared to the DVX. Unfortunately there's only so much you can do via menus in the older D35. Any hidden menus in the Sony beyond the scene files, or other thoughts?

Initially I was trying to match the DVX to the Sony (this company uses the Sony's as their primary cameras), but after discovering the weaknesses of the Sony and how much I liked the Panasonic's color better, I think I'd like to tweak the Sony in that direction instead.
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#5 Jeff Regan

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 09:54 PM

Thanks Jeff,

I recently took a stab at trying to match a Sony D35 and a DVX-100B, and got them reasonably close. But the Sony is very magenta in warm neutrals (tan, etc), almost like it's out of phase (camera is setup in camcorder config, not CCU). Of course it's weak in the green saturation, especially compared to the DVX. Unfortunately there's only so much you can do via menus in the older D35. Any hidden menus in the Sony beyond the scene files, or other thoughts?


Michael,

I find the D30, D35, and DSR-500, 570 cameras to be inadequate as far as camera control parameters.
The DSR-450 has a completely different user interface, it uses a menu wheel like the broadcast cameras
such as newer Digital Betacams, and HDCAM. The 450 has an incredible array of menus and setup options,
more like a broadcast series studio companion camera than an industrial series camera. The flexibility
of setup options of the 450, plus the one million pixels per chip and multiple film gammas separate the
450 from any of the previous Sony industrial camcorders. It compares favorably to the SDX 900 in
many areas, IMO.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
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#6 Michael Nash

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:16 PM

I find the D30, D35, and DSR-500, 570 cameras to be inadequate as far as camera control parameters.


Agreed. But when said company already owns 9 of them, you're kind of stuck! :(
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#7 Robert Scarfe

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for all the replies.
Not having either a Sony camera nor the set up capability, one thing is clear by the postings, there are differences, I was only aware off subjective differences when viewing the TX output when the SDX-900 was intercut with DSR 570/450. One large news broadcasters in the UK has changed over from DvcPro and SDX cameras to Sony DvCam with DSR 450, Must have been a political decision and not on technical grounds!
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