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10 bit 12bit or 8 bit ??


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#1 Tony Yates

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 07:59 AM

I read recently in a forum that the Sony 750 and 900 cameras actually record to their onboard recorders in 8 bit and that they only output 10 or 12 bit to HD SDI. This was not elaborated on or questioned but I find it actually very important when it comes to camera choice. Is the way these cameras are marketed as 10 bit / 12 bit just part of the sales pitch - as we are likely to choose the 750 or 900 because they have the convenience of the onboard recorder and they both actually record in 8bit there isnt a lot of difference between them.
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:04 AM

I read recently in a forum that the Sony 750 and 900 cameras actually record to their onboard recorders in 8 bit and that they only output 10 or 12 bit to HD SDI. This was not elaborated on or questioned but I find it actually very important when it comes to camera choice. Is the way these cameras are marketed as 10 bit / 12 bit just part of the sales pitch - as we are likely to choose the 750 or 900 because they have the convenience of the onboard recorder and they both actually record in 8bit there isnt a lot of difference between them.


Hi,

Unless you record to Hard Drive or HDCamSR I think you will be stuck with 8 bit.

Stephen
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#3 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:33 AM

One difference is that the HDW 750 has 10 bit A/D conversion against 12 bit A/D conversion on the F900R. Which I suspect is the difference being pointed out, since the HD SDI is 10bit. This will give slightly smoother looking colours on the F900.

There are also a range of set up curves available for the F900, which you can't use on the HDW 750. Together with a larger selection of formats available with the F900, including 23.98p/24p.

I expect the deciding factor is the market that you're aiming to use the camera in. If possible look at test pictures from theses cameras side by side and see if any differences are of consequence on the productions you plan to shoot. Although it has been pointed out that these cameras don't give their best pictures straight out of the box.

CML has recently shot some tests with these cameras and they should be up on that site in the near future.
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#4 Tony Yates

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:48 AM

Hi,

Unless you record to Hard Drive or HDCamSR I think you will be stuck with 8 bit.

Stephen



Thanks Stephen
Arent Sony giving a slightly wrong impression then by marketing those two cameras as 10 bit and 12 bit. I kind of chanced upon this information - its not widely advertised.
If you were going to record to hard drive or an HDCam SR deck you would be better off with a system camera like the 1500 or 1550 which supports 14bit 4:4:4 - although all that information going through a BNC plug slightly worries me !
However this must mean that the diffenrence between a 750 or 900 recording on-board in 8bits and a 1500 recording to a deck in 14 bits must be quite noticable ?
Tony.
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#5 Tony Yates

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:01 AM

One difference is that the HDW 750 has 10 bit A/D conversion against 12 bit A/D conversion on the F900R. Which I suspect is the difference being pointed out, since the HD SDI is 10bit. This will give slightly smoother looking colours on the F900.

There are also a range of set up curves available for the F900, which you can't use on the HDW 750. Together with a larger selection of formats available with the F900, including 23.98p/24p.

I expect the deciding factor is the market that you're aiming to use the camera in. If possible look at test pictures from theses cameras side by side and see if any differences are of consequence on the productions you plan to shoot. Although it has been pointed out that these cameras don't give their best pictures straight out of the box.

CML has recently shot some tests with these cameras and they should be up on that site in the near future.


Thanks Brian
I look forward to seeing the tests but from what I understand if you are using the 750 or 900 as camcorders and disregard any output available to external decks you are recording 8bit on both.
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#6 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:32 AM

Thanks Brian
I look forward to seeing the tests but from what I understand if you are using the 750 or 900 as camcorders and disregard any output available to external decks you are recording 8bit on both.


Yes, both record onto 8 bit HDCAM.
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 02:26 PM

Thanks Stephen
Arent Sony giving a slightly wrong impression then by marketing those two cameras as 10 bit and 12 bit. I kind of chanced upon this information - its not widely advertised.
If you were going to record to hard drive or an HDCam SR deck you would be better off with a system camera like the 1500 or 1550 which supports 14bit 4:4:4 - although all that information going through a BNC plug slightly worries me !
However this must mean that the diffenrence between a 750 or 900 recording on-board in 8bits and a 1500 recording to a deck in 14 bits must be quite noticable ?
Tony.


Hi,

1440 x 1080 3:1:1 then compressed thats HDCAM.

Currently on a 10 day Viper to HDcam SR shoot. 2 BNC's needed for 4:4:4. Works like a dream!

Stephen
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#8 Tony Yates

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:00 PM

Hi,

1440 x 1080 3:1:1 then compressed thats HDCAM.

Currently on a 10 day Viper to HDcam SR shoot. 2 BNC's needed for 4:4:4. Works like a dream!

Stephen



Yeh - I've just come off a shoot using two HD SDI feeds from a sony 1500 camera fed to a HD Cam SR deck recording 4:4:4 14bits and it worked fine but BNC connector plugs are still a pretty unsubstantial method of feeding all that information down a cable.
The whole reason I started this thread is that I was due to do some pick-ups for that shoot but on a 900 camera in camcorder mode foolishly thinking I would be recording 4:4:2 in 12 bits. Luckily I am now aware that it would be 3:1:1 in 8bits and will push for the SR deck again.
Many thanks
Tony.
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#9 Harry Capota

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:36 PM

hi there

both cameras 750+900 output 10bit 4:2:2.
12 bit of the 900 series is just the internal processing of the image.



Harry Capota
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