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#1 Luke Chimi

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 03:17 PM

Hello,

How would you rank the following in quality of video for a transfer?

MiniDV

DVcam

DVCPRO

DVCPRO 50

DigiBeta

Would any of this matter if it is going in through Firewire? Would there be a noticeable difference after loading it into my computer or would that negate the value of such formats? Would I have to get a better capture card for it to be worth doing anything other than MiniDV?

Any info is appreciated,

Luke
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#2 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 04:24 PM

How would you rank the following in quality of video for a transfer?

MiniDV

DVcam

DVCPRO

These three formats all have Identical video quality (4:1:1 8bit 25mb/s) the only difference is in the mechanical robustness of the format and better timecode handling. NO Picture quality difference!

DVCPRO 50

This format is 4:2:2 8bit and will have noticeably better quality than the standard DV compressor, I believe it can be transported over Firewire into FCP,etc. at it's native 50mb/s quality.

DigiBeta

Digibeta is 10bit 4:2:2 and less compressed than DVCPRO50 and is generally the gold standard in SD videotape, this is a SDI based format and is generally ingested over SDI to an uncompressed disk.

Would any of this matter if it is going in through Firewire? Would there be a noticeable difference after loading it into my computer or would that negate the value of such formats? Would I have to get a better capture card for it to be worth doing anything other than MiniDV?

Except for DigiBeta which should be ingested over SDI the other DVC based formats should not lose quality over firewire. If you ingest DigiBeta through a converter which goes from SDI to Firewire (DV25) you will lose a significant amount of quality!

-Rob-
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#3 Luke Chimi

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:07 PM

How would you rank the following in quality of video for a transfer?

MiniDV

DVcam

DVCPRO

These three formats all have Identical video quality (4:1:1 8bit 25mb/s) the only difference is in the mechanical robustness of the format and better timecode handling. NO Picture quality difference!

DVCPRO 50

This format is 4:2:2 8bit and will have noticeably better quality than the standard DV compressor, I believe it can be transported over Firewire into FCP,etc. at it's native 50mb/s quality.

DigiBeta

Digibeta is 10bit 4:2:2 and less compressed than DVCPRO50 and is generally the gold standard in SD videotape, this is a SDI based format and is generally ingested over SDI to an uncompressed disk.

Would any of this matter if it is going in through Firewire? Would there be a noticeable difference after loading it into my computer or would that negate the value of such formats? Would I have to get a better capture card for it to be worth doing anything other than MiniDV?

Except for DigiBeta which should be ingested over SDI the other DVC based formats should not lose quality over firewire. If you ingest DigiBeta through a converter which goes from SDI to Firewire (DV25) you will lose a significant amount of quality!

-Rob-



Thanks so much for your reply.

Son only DVCPRO 50 or Digibeta will make a picture quality difference.

I have heard that you need a Decklink for DigiBeta and then a Raid setup to be able to handle all the uncompressed 10bit video.

Is this true even if I had a Mac or PC with huge Hard Drives, like 750 gigabyte drives?

Is a raid really necessary, because otherwise it would be somewhat affordable with a good computer and a decklink to edit uncompressed DigiBeta.

And as far as DVCPRO 50, if it works through a firewire then Raid definitely would not be necessary, right?

Your answer was very much appreciated, thanks,

Luke
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#4 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:43 PM

Thanks so much for your reply.

Son only DVCPRO 50 or Digibeta will make a picture quality difference.

I have heard that you need a Decklink for DigiBeta and then a Raid setup to be able to handle all the uncompressed 10bit video.

Is this true even if I had a Mac or PC with huge Hard Drives, like 750 gigabyte drives?

Is a raid really necessary, because otherwise it would be somewhat affordable with a good computer and a decklink to edit uncompressed DigiBeta.

And as far as DVCPRO 50, if it works through a firewire then Raid definitely would not be necessary, right?

Your answer was very much appreciated, thanks,

Luke



You do not need a expensive specialty raid, a pair of drives striped together on the Firewire800 bus will be able to handle uncompressed 10bit SD video. Dv50 will work with a single drive but maybe not if you fill it completely.

-Rob-
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#5 Luke Chimi

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 06:54 PM

Thanks.

I wonder if labs are set up for DVCPRO 50 most of the time. It does not seem like the most popular format.

Thanks,

Luke
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#6 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:05 PM

Thanks.

I wonder if labs are set up for DVCPRO 50 most of the time. It does not seem like the most popular format.

Thanks,

Luke



I think you find DvcPro 50 more in the "video" world than the film/post world because while it is a good format it is still only 8bit and fairly compressed. Also if you buy every deck out there you will go bankrupt trying to stay current with all the formats.

-Rob-
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#7 Michael Collier

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:56 PM

Be wary of transfering to mini-DV. I have heard of time code issues with that format. I am not sure the mechanics of it, but TC is not always correct on tape (TC can change each time you play the same clip by a few frames). if the TC is off, then it will be off in your EDL. If you ever want to do another HD transfer, or a negative cut, you may have issues with mini-DV. DVCAM alleviates this problem (I think thats the one difference between the two standards, though DVCAM might have a layer of redundancy mini-DV does not)
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#8 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 10:48 AM

Be wary of transfering to mini-DV. I have heard of time code issues with that format. I am not sure the mechanics of it, but TC is not always correct on tape (TC can change each time you play the same clip by a few frames). if the TC is off, then it will be off in your EDL. If you ever want to do another HD transfer, or a negative cut, you may have issues with mini-DV. DVCAM alleviates this problem (I think thats the one difference between the two standards, though DVCAM might have a layer of redundancy mini-DV does not)


What about DVCPRO 50 does that have timecode problems?

I am not a MiniDV fan, and as far as I have been making films, my post workflow has always been transfer to MiniDV edit and dump back to tape or DVD.

I am looking to do something similar and finish on Video but with better quality.

DVCPRO 50 is 4:2:2 8bit which means it is 8 bit but will look a lot better than MiniDV, I believe. I would use DigiBeta but it would require a Decklink and a Raid set-up in order to capture and edit in 10 bit uncompressed.

(Does anyone know a cheap Raid setup? If I could get one that is only a couple hundred bucks for like a PCI raid card and then buy a couple of hard drives and plug them in I could go DigiBeta. (Black Magic makes a decklink ard that is only 300).)

Whereas the DVCPRO 50 will just require Firewire 800, it appears.

Of course they will both require a deck rental now and then, but that is not too bad.

Thanks,

Luke
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#9 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:32 PM

Be wary of transfering to mini-DV. I have heard of time code issues with that format. I am not sure the mechanics of it, but TC is not always correct on tape (TC can change each time you play the same clip by a few frames). if the TC is off, then it will be off in your EDL. If you ever want to do another HD transfer, or a negative cut, you may have issues with mini-DV. DVCAM alleviates this problem (I think thats the one difference between the two standards, though DVCAM might have a layer of redundancy mini-DV does not)

I have found this to be Very True! I cringe whenever somebody asks me to do a Keycode transfer to MiniDV and then try to talk them into DVcam or BetaSP both have locked timecode and are real robust pro formats. The other issue with MiniDv which crops up from time to time is "deck" incompatibility (or camera) as many people use cheap consumer DV cameras to capture to their editor and not all of those $300 camcorders are aligned right.

-Rob-

What about DVCPRO 50 does that have timecode problems?

I am not a MiniDV fan,

Nor am I

DVCPRO 50 is 4:2:2 8bit which means it is 8 bit but will look a lot better than MiniDV, I believe. I would use DigiBeta but it would require a Decklink and a Raid set-up in order to capture and edit in 10 bit uncompressed.

Have you thought about doing a direct to disk transfer? Most telecine places (like us) will transfer to disk uncompressed these days. All you would need is a disk setup which will perform and you can edit uncompressed and make all of your deliverable from there. A dvd encoded from a uncompressed source will look better than one encoded from DV, by far.

(Does anyone know a cheap Raid setup?

Look at LaCie, etc firewire800 disks many of them are setup with 2 drives (in 500G or 1TB) and will handle 10bit SD files fine.


Luke


-Rob-
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#10 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:35 PM

I have found this to be Very True! I cringe whenever somebody asks me to do a Keycode transfer to MiniDV and then try to talk them into DVcam or BetaSP both have locked timecode and are real robust pro formats. The other issue with MiniDv which crops up from time to time is "deck" incompatibility (or camera) as many people use cheap consumer DV cameras to capture to their editor and not all of those $300 camcorders are aligned right.

-Rob-
-Rob-



Thanks Rob.

As far as I know direct to hard drive seems to cost a lot more. Maybe I am wrong.

Thanks for all your help,

Luke
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#11 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:49 PM

"Look at LaCie, etc firewire800 disks many of them are setup with 2 drives (in 500G or 1TB) and will handle 10bit SD files fine."

Rob,

I was under the impression that you could not capture 10 bit Uncompressed files through Firewire800. I know it would be good for DVCPRO 50, but would it work for DigiBeta through a decklink.

Lacie also has Sata II Raid set-ups for the same price, would this be the smarter way to go if I was using a Black Magic Decklink and capturing DigiBeta uncompressed?

Or will Firewire 800 suffice? I keep finding mixed input about this stuff. Since you own a lab you probably know best.

Thanks,

Luke
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#12 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:52 PM

"Look at LaCie, etc firewire800 disks many of them are setup with 2 drives (in 500G or 1TB) and will handle 10bit SD files fine."

Rob,

I was under the impression that you could not capture 10 bit Uncompressed files through Firewire800. I know it would be good for DVCPRO 50, but would it work for DigiBeta through a decklink.

Lacie also has Sata II Raid set-ups for the same price, would this be the smarter way to go if I was using a Black Magic Decklink and capturing DigiBeta uncompressed?

Or will Firewire 800 suffice? I keep finding mixed input about this stuff. Since you own a lab you probably know best.

Thanks,

Luke



I have a 2 disk 1Tb Firewire800 disk on a G5 which we use scopebox (www.scopebox.com) to capture 10bit uncompressed SDI with a Decklink SDI card never had a hiccup with this setup.

-Rob-
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#13 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:44 PM

I have a 2 disk 1Tb Firewire800 disk on a G5 which we use scopebox (www.scopebox.com) to capture 10bit uncompressed SDI with a Decklink SDI card never had a hiccup with this setup.

-Rob-


Thanks again. This stuff is more affordable than I thought.

Luke
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#14 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:02 PM

Thanks again. This stuff is more affordable than I thought.

Luke



A SDi only Blackmagic card is only $300.00 too..

-Rob-
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#15 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:09 PM

A SDi only Blackmagic card is only $300.00 too..

-Rob-



Apparently Mac Pros allow RAID to be set-up on their internal Sata II Hard Drives.

Would this be just as good or better than getting a a Lacie Firewire 800?

I am going to have a Mac Pro with 1.5 TB. I can alot 1TB for RAID. That should be able to handle the Uncompressed Video right? And then I would not have to spend additional money on the Lacie Set-Up.

Thanks again in advance, you are really helping me out here.

Luke
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#16 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:36 PM

Apparently Mac Pros allow RAID to be set-up on their internal Sata II Hard Drives.

Would this be just as good or better than getting a a Lacie Firewire 800?

I am going to have a Mac Pro with 1.5 TB. I can alot 1TB for RAID. That should be able to handle the Uncompressed Video right? And then I would not have to spend additional money on the Lacie Set-Up.

Thanks again in advance, you are really helping me out here.

Luke



Absolutely the internal sata array will be higher performance than FW800 so all you need is a card to work with Digibeta.

-Rob-
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#17 Luke Chimi

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:47 PM

Absolutely the internal sata array will be higher performance than FW800 so all you need is a card to work with Digibeta.

-Rob-


Rob,

Thanks man!

Luke
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