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Fomapan R100 - what am i doing wrong?


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#1 markb

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 05:22 AM

I'm trying to learn how to develop film and thought i'd start with Fomapan R100 Regular 8 film as the kits and film are readily available.

I've tried three films and get the same results every time. I'm using a morse rewind tank (which may be the problem!).

All seems to go well and during the reversal re-exposure i can see the image forming in the window as i wind through. But after the second development and fix i end up with a dark brown film which you cannot see through.

I use a fresh batch of developer for the second development and have been very careful with my temperatures and times.

I tried search the web for answers but am stumped. Please can anyone help?

Thanks

Mark
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#2 Richardson Leao

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:56 AM

Hi Mark,

the fomapan has some antihalation layer and it generally comes off during the 1st development. Here is some troubleshooting:

1: Develop (1st)
2: bleach
3. clear

open the tank and with gloves, hold the 2 rollers and look through a piece of film against the light. You should see the image in milky white and the rest (the dark bits on the original image) transparent. The image (depending on the subject) should be rich and you should actually see the pic you want.

It seems that your 1st dev is being too short. I dunno what kind of kit you have but using d19 (kodak) and a morse tank, I would do:

1st dev: 10 turns
bleach 6 turns
clear 6 turns

2dev: 8 turns
fix: 6

wash

but before, get a stripe of film and develop it in a container up to the re-exposure.

But, by your description, it seems that either, you are not developing properly during the 1st dev (it's quite hard to screw up by overtime, but easy for under) AND/OR your bleach is not acidic enough to stop the 1st dev. My bleach contains

1L water
K dichromate (~40g)
12ml of glacial sulfuric acid (if you mix, never add water to the acid - only the other way round). Hope it helps.

cheers

richard

I'm trying to learn how to develop film and thought i'd start with Fomapan R100 Regular 8 film as the kits and film are readily available.

I've tried three films and get the same results every time. I'm using a morse rewind tank (which may be the problem!).

All seems to go well and during the reversal re-exposure i can see the image forming in the window as i wind through. But after the second development and fix i end up with a dark brown film which you cannot see through.

I use a fresh batch of developer for the second development and have been very careful with my temperatures and times.

I tried search the web for answers but am stumped. Please can anyone help?

Thanks

Mark


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#3 markb

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 08:11 AM

Hi Mark,

the fomapan has some antihalation layer and it generally comes off during the 1st development. Here is some troubleshooting:

1: Develop (1st)
2: bleach
3. clear

open the tank and with gloves, hold the 2 rollers and look through a piece of film against the light. You should see the image in milky white and the rest (the dark bits on the original image) transparent. The image (depending on the subject) should be rich and you should actually see the pic you want.

It seems that your 1st dev is being too short. I dunno what kind of kit you have but using d19 (kodak) and a morse tank, I would do:

1st dev: 10 turns
bleach 6 turns
clear 6 turns

2dev: 8 turns
fix: 6

wash

but before, get a stripe of film and develop it in a container up to the re-exposure.

But, by your description, it seems that either, you are not developing properly during the 1st dev (it's quite hard to screw up by overtime, but easy for under) AND/OR your bleach is not acidic enough to stop the 1st dev. My bleach contains

1L water
K dichromate (~40g)
12ml of glacial sulfuric acid (if you mix, never add water to the acid - only the other way round). Hope it helps.

cheers

richard


I've been following the Fomapan instructions
12 mins 1st develop
2 mins rinse
8 mins bleach
2 mins rinse
5 mins clearing
2 mins rinse
re-expose
5 mins 2nd develop
2 mins rinse
12 mins rinse

rewinding continuously. when i open the window to rexpose the film is white and the images don't appear until i shine the light on the film. so could it still be the first develop is not long enough?

thanks
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#4 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 12:40 PM

I've tried three films and get the same results every time. I'm using a morse rewind tank (which may be the problem!).


I recommend you use of LOMO spiral tank and all will OK.
If you need, i can delivery set of chemistry for processing B&W reversal film and a few versions of film dryers.
You can ask of more information with request on my e-mail.
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#5 Richardson Leao

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 06:46 PM

I've been following the Fomapan instructions
12 mins 1st develop
2 mins rinse
8 mins bleach
2 mins rinse
5 mins clearing
2 mins rinse
re-expose
5 mins 2nd develop
2 mins rinse
12 mins rinse

rewinding continuously. when i open the window to rexpose the film is white and the images don't appear until i shine the light on the film. so could it still be the first develop is not long enough?

thanks


Take the rolls out and examine the film, look if you can see it against the light. Also, 12' would be on normal tanks, rewind tanks, each minute is a full cycle (so, you have to rewind in moderate speed) the film 12 times, not 12 minutes rewinding). But yes, if you can, do what Olexandr said... Btw, do not try a whole roll at once until you get it properly. Do tests! Cheers

Edited by Richardson Leao, 27 February 2007 - 06:47 PM.

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#6 markb

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:30 AM

Take the rolls out and examine the film, look if you can see it against the light. Also, 12' would be on normal tanks, rewind tanks, each minute is a full cycle (so, you have to rewind in moderate speed) the film 12 times, not 12 minutes rewinding). But yes, if you can, do what Olexandr said... Btw, do not try a whole roll at once until you get it properly. Do tests! Cheers


thanks - i will try again tonight and see what happens.
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#7 markb

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 04:55 AM

Well i tried again. I increased the first develop to 15 turns, the bleach to 12 turns, the clear to 16, the second develop to 8 turns and the fix to 16 turns.

after the clear i examined the film and i had a milky white film with a very clear & sharp negative image but the image wasn't transparent. the back of the film still had a brown stain on it so i'm thinking maybe the bleach is not working.

by the end i ended up with exactly the same result as before so i've ordered a spiral tank!!! it's just frustrating because everything starts off so well until the second develop and then my images vanish!
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#8 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:17 PM

after the clear i examined the film and i had a milky white film with a very clear & sharp negative image but the image wasn't transparent. the back of the film still had a brown stain on it so i'm thinking maybe the bleach is not working.

lets back up one step here..

1) first develop, forms a black negative image.
2 Blech turns the negative into a chemical which will not develop.
3) clear ing bath - further conversion of the negative.

4 **SECOND DEVELOPER** creates a positive image.

5 fix removes undeveloped and bleached silver

6 wash, removes the chicals- leaves Positive silver image.


After the beach, your negative should be almost gone, and the second dev should be able to create a positibve in the light while you watch it happen. sounds like your second developer / reexpousure stage has a problem.
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#9 markb

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:15 AM

lets back up one step here..

1) first develop, forms a black negative image.
2 Blech turns the negative into a chemical which will not develop.
3) clear ing bath - further conversion of the negative.

4 **SECOND DEVELOPER** creates a positive image.

5 fix removes undeveloped and bleached silver

6 wash, removes the chicals- leaves Positive silver image.
After the beach, your negative should be almost gone, and the second dev should be able to create a positibve in the light while you watch it happen. sounds like your second developer / reexpousure stage has a problem.


that was what was happening originally. after the clearing i would have a white film and the images would appear as i shone the light through the window. but after the second developer the images disapeared. i've tried using fresh developer for the second develop even though the instructions say you can use the developer from the first develop but it doesn't seem to make any difference.
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#10 andres victorero

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 02:25 PM

Hi, i´m trying to explain you the problem with my "indian" english

Foma R100 is a great stock very sharpness and contrastly. I had a lot of problems like you. I always develop foma films myself with lomo tanks.
some months ago I used the foma chemistry kit to develop the film. The first develops were great but the sencond, third, etc I had very problems like a dark or very dark films.

the mainly problem is the second step THE BLEACH, you only can use it once, if you use it two or three times you only get black films. I don´t know why, but the the bleach only works the first time, forget to reuse. The developer, cleaner and fix can be used more times but the bleach only once.

Due to the bleach problem, I always must purchase a lot of chemistry kits to develop some film. I archive the chemistry to make the bleach (go to foma web and you can get the composition) so I can use the developer-cleaner and fix many times.

other advice is, the bleach and clean step you always remove the liquid. If you don´t remove the bleach step you can archieve a "beautiful" brown stain in the hightlights
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#11 markb

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 03:44 AM

Hi, i´m trying to explain you the problem with my "indian" english

Foma R100 is a great stock very sharpness and contrastly. I had a lot of problems like you. I always develop foma films myself with lomo tanks.
some months ago I used the foma chemistry kit to develop the film. The first develops were great but the sencond, third, etc I had very problems like a dark or very dark films.

the mainly problem is the second step THE BLEACH, you only can use it once, if you use it two or three times you only get black films. I don´t know why, but the the bleach only works the first time, forget to reuse. The developer, cleaner and fix can be used more times but the bleach only once.

Due to the bleach problem, I always must purchase a lot of chemistry kits to develop some film. I archive the chemistry to make the bleach (go to foma web and you can get the composition) so I can use the developer-cleaner and fix many times.

other advice is, the bleach and clean step you always remove the liquid. If you don´t remove the bleach step you can archieve a "beautiful" brown stain in the hightlights


i have been using fresh chemicals for every film and only use them once.
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#12 Nick Mulder

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 04:59 AM

I have used the chemicals and processes listed here with 20 year old Plus-X 7276 and have got good results from the first batch (in a lomo tank) ...

I dont know how those morse tanks work but I know when I remove the film for the re-exposure step that I can clearly see the latent image from word go... none of this 'images appearing as i shone the light through the window' business - i.e. the bits that have been bleached are already fully clear leaving only the emulsion left to be exposed and developed in the dark/darker areas of the image - (which makes sense...)

If you aren't seeing your image immediately then there is a problem before this point - maybe the bleach yes or you aren't souping it enough in the first dev, I have successfully developed film with both mixtures well into their 7-hundredth foot of film (ie. they've been used 6 times previous) ...

As the others have suggested try:

1. Longer First Dev
2. Longer Bleach
3. Both of the above in the same soup

If you want I can send you some frames that I've dried after the clearing bath and is yet to be have its second develop so you can see what you should be getting ... and the chems listed at the above link are usually easily available from a chemical supplier (whoever supplies your local college chemistry dept) - even easier if you can buy D19 direct from Kodak as that takes care of most of the chems in one hit ...

Um... are you sure you're exposing the film in camera correctly ?
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#13 markb

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 08:35 AM

I've been using a strong light for the re-exposure through the window of the tank.

I did a bucket process on a film that broke in the tank and it came out fine (but very inconsistent - which is normal) so i think my camera exposures are fine.

(1 wind from spool to spool takes 1 min)
i did 16 winds of develop
12 winds of bleach
8 winds of clear
6 passes of light for re-exposure
8 winds of 2nd develop
8 winds of fixer.

as i said earlier after the clearing i can see a very clear negative image on a white emulsion, but there is a brown emulsion like stain on the back of the film - could this be coming from the emulsion when the film is winding on and off the spool? as i wind the film emulsion side out as per the manual.
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#14 mark_baldry

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 08:52 AM

I've been using a strong light for the re-exposure through the window of the tank.

I did a bucket process on a film that broke in the tank and it came out fine (but very inconsistent - which is normal) so i think my camera exposures are fine.

(1 wind from spool to spool takes 1 min)
i did 16 winds of develop
12 winds of bleach
8 winds of clear
6 passes of light for re-exposure
8 winds of 2nd develop
8 winds of fixer.

as i said earlier after the clearing i can see a very clear negative image on a white emulsion, but there is a brown emulsion like stain on the back of the film - could this be coming from the emulsion when the film is winding on and off the spool? as i wind the film emulsion side out as per the manual.


what i mean is could the emulsion be rubbing off from the layer underneath and sticking to the back of the film as it is wouind back and forth through the tank. if so what would cause this?

Edited by mark_baldry, 06 March 2007 - 08:53 AM.

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#15 Nick Mulder

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:37 PM

I did a bucket process on a film that broke in the tank and it came out fine (but very inconsistent - which is normal) so i think my camera exposures are fine.

Well, that about seals it doesn't it ?

Its not a chem problem. The Morse tank is at fault - or the particular way you are using it ... Sorry if I've only just caught up on this one :rolleyes: You said earlier you had ordered a Lomo tank, when does it arrive ?

(I've been waiting near on 3 weeks for my monster 100' version)
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#16 Richardson Leao

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 06:59 PM

I've been using a strong light for the re-exposure through the window of the tank.

I did a bucket process on a film that broke in the tank and it came out fine (but very inconsistent - which is normal) so i think my camera exposures are fine.

(1 wind from spool to spool takes 1 min)
i did 16 winds of develop
12 winds of bleach
8 winds of clear
6 passes of light for re-exposure
8 winds of 2nd develop
8 winds of fixer.

as i said earlier after the clearing i can see a very clear negative image on a white emulsion, but there is a brown emulsion like stain on the back of the film - could this be coming from the emulsion when the film is winding on and off the spool? as i wind the film emulsion side out as per the manual.


you could try to wash between the steps. Also, the backing of the film has a kind of silver based antihalation layer (that should go off during the bleach) but perhaps adding 5g of sodium (or potassium) tiocyanate (silver solvent) on your 1st developer could help. But I think it's a consensus, use the lomo (as you said bucket process work). It's at least 3 times faster and hassle free.
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#17 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:00 PM

The Morse tank is at fault - or the particular way you are using it ... Sorry if I've only just caught up on this one :rolleyes: You said earlier you had ordered a Lomo tank, when does it arrive ?

The moris does have the disadvantage that the chemicals don't get to circulates as much, which probaly will add considerably to the required developing time.

Can you try a short test in a still tank, (5 feet) to see if that can work for you. (it will be a minature version of the LOMO )
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#18 Nick Mulder

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 04:31 PM

Yeehaw!

My 100' Lomo arrived today from the Ukraine - niceness - its the biggy one, not the split 50'/50' (I have one of them also) - what particularly stoked me was that I sold both of my 33' tanks for the same price each as the 100' - Love the chunky design, the retaining clip things look like they were chewed by some sort of animal, not as an animal disaster but chewing as a proper manufacturing process ...

I've got a backlog of film to develop now bigtime as I was waiting for it to arrive ...

I might look into ECN2 processing soon at this rate (;

but anyways, any update on the processing issues with this morse tank ?

Nick

Edited by Nick Mulder, 07 March 2007 - 04:32 PM.

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#19 Richardson Leao

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 07:01 PM

Yeehaw!

My 100' Lomo arrived today from the Ukraine - niceness - its the biggy one, not the split 50'/50' (I have one of them also) - what particularly stoked me was that I sold both of my 33' tanks for the same price each as the 100' - Love the chunky design, the retaining clip things look like they were chewed by some sort of animal, not as an animal disaster but chewing as a proper manufacturing process ...

I've got a backlog of film to develop now bigtime as I was waiting for it to arrive ...

I might look into ECN2 processing soon at this rate (;

but anyways, any update on the processing issues with this morse tank ?

Nick


Nick,

for ecn2 (if you were serious), or c41 on ecn2 films, the morse is better as you can just put a sponge facing the rem jet during the borax step (to get rid of the carbon back).
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#20 Nick Mulder

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:00 PM

I'd like to try it yes... but it looks like i would need to build a proper wet darkroom, as opposed to the closet and kitchen that i am currently using
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