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Fanboys and Hecklers. . .


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#1 Stuart McCammon

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 11:05 PM

OK, so let me get this straight - if you are rabidly positive about RED you are a fanboy and if you ask even one question you are a heckler? Wow, what a rhetorical trick that is! Kind of like the Socs and Greasers in The Outsiders (unless of course you are Pony Boy and just want to stay alive long enough to bang Cherry Valance) -

Anyway, this whole controversy is completely ridiculous - anyone who posts here about RED is by definition interested, even if they are skeptical, and Mr. Jannard should be smart enough to know that there is no such thing as bad publicity - all the mudslinging does is get more people interested in RED and line his corporate pockets.

Anyway, for the record, I support the RED effort and anxiously await a production version - until then, I'm hitting the snooze button)
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#2 Ralph Oshiro

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

. . . unless of course you are Pony Boy and just want to stay alive long enough to bang Cherry Valance.

I like THAT option!
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#3 David Sweetman

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 11:54 PM

This is a can of worms which was decisively closed a few months back; it seems generally accepted here that arguing, denouncing, defending - all on the basis of speculation - this camera is a detriment to constructive forum discussion, especially in this Jannard-prescribed "fanboy/heckler" context. For a while these pages were dominated by red-colored threads, a bit much for a camera which is by any measure a phantom. (not to be confused with the Phantom, which is less of a phantom, strangely enough...)

There's a Red'user' forum where you can ask these questions and probably get more replies...not that you'll get a welcoming response...
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#4 Carl Brighton

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:17 AM

This is a can of worms which was decisively closed a few months back; it seems generally accepted here that arguing, denouncing, defending - all on the basis of speculation - this camera is a detriment to constructive forum discussion, especially in this Jannard-prescribed "fanboy/heckler" context. For a while these pages were dominated by red-colored threads, a bit much for a camera which is by any measure a phantom. (not to be confused with the Phantom, which is less of a phantom, strangely enough...)

There's a Red'user' forum where you can ask these questions and probably get more replies...not that you'll get a welcoming response...

The situation is quite clear-cut, much though certian people would like to pretend otherwise:

The Straw Man that keeps getting erected by the Fanboys is basically this scenario:

"On one hand we have the Red supporters who are 100% behind Jim Jannard and think he deserves every chance to try out his revolutionary ideas and on the other:
We have the Red-Haters, Hecklers and luddites who desperately want to see the RED fail, (although what particular advantage this will give the vast majority of them has never really been made clear).

In reality, what we have a large group of people, most of them technically illiterate, who desperately want the RED to succeed, although what particular advantage this will give the vast majority of them has never really been made clear, while on the other hand :
We have a large group of industry professionals who've heard the same sort of claims made numerous times in the past about other "revolutionary" equipment, always without proof, and nearly always either coming to nothing, or producing real-world results that fell far short of the Hype. So far the "evidence" that RED have produced is hardly convincing, consisting as it does of a very tiny amount of footage which was shot behind closed doors under conditions that were not revealed.

OK come NAB all this might change, but until then the Fanboys are getting into a lather about a product that for all practical purposes doesn't exist yet. If they consider pointing that fact out to constitute heckling, I can't wait for them to get out into the real world of film and TV production.
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#5 Ralph Oshiro

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:22 AM

I can't wait for them to get out into the real world of film and TV production.

Some of us are in the real world of film and TV production, and have been for some time.
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#6 Stuart McCammon

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 01:15 AM

I wish to take back my earlier analogy, and submit instead that FanBoy and The Heckler sound as if they were ripped from the pages of a comic book, in which case I have a couple of questions:

1) Are Robert Rodriguez and Frank Miller going to co-direct the movie?, and
2) Is FanGirl going to look as good in her suit as CatWoman did?

Rowr! Enquiring minds. . .
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#7 Ralph Oshiro

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 01:19 AM

2) Is FanGirl going to look as good in her suit as CatWoman did?

I vote for Jessica Alba to be cast as "FanGirl."
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#8 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:22 AM

In reality, what we have a large group of people, most of them technically illiterate, who desperately want the RED to succeed, although what particular advantage this will give the vast majority of them has never really been made clear, while on the other hand :
We have a large group of industry professionals who've heard the same sort of claims made numerous times in the past about other "revolutionary" equipment, always without proof, and nearly always either coming to nothing, or producing real-world results that fell far short of the Hype. So far the "evidence" that RED have produced is hardly convincing, consisting as it does of a very tiny amount of footage which was shot behind closed doors under conditions that were not revealed.



GREAT analysis! :rolleyes:

Who are you to evaluate the technical/practical skills of roughly 1460 RED reservation holders?! (Whom you can´t possibly know)

It is in arrogant and generalising claims like this that any useful discussion/dialogue is derailed every time.

Just keep going, again and again...

Edited by Eirik Tyrihjel, 03 March 2007 - 04:26 AM.

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#9 Michael Schrengohst

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 09:24 AM

Just go visit the RED forums....
Most of the guys over there have
an intense passion for the art, craft and commerce
of film/video production.
In this business if you cannot dream a little
than whats the point?
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#10 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 09:38 AM

Thanks to this thread, I've learned that I am illiterate, easily conned and actually don't make money from what I do.

I dunno if this revelation makes me happier, but it's good to finally know where I stand.

java script:emoticon(':P', 'smid_5')
Cheers!


Gunleik
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#11 Stuart McCammon

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:03 AM

OK, it occurred to me that a FanBoy might be one of those guys who gets to hang around a hot chick all day and fan her (ala Cleopatra), so I'm reconsidering my decision - although I think I prefer to be Peeled Grape Man, there seem to be plenty of FanBoys)
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#12 Carl Brighton

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:38 PM

Who are you to evaluate the technical/practical skills of roughly 1460 RED reservation holders?! (Whom you can´t possibly know)

I might ask you the same question.
What I've read so far on the Fanboy sites doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

In any case the problem is not so much that, as the automatic branding of anybody who hasn't drunk the Red Kool-Aid as some sort of hertetic, or as someone with a mindset stuck in the 1940s.

I have no doubt Jannard will eventually produce cameras, and there's no reason why they can't be excellent cameras, and if he can hold that price, an absolute steal. But in the hands of the average RedUser poster I seriously doubt anything useful will ever come out of them.

Jannard would rather die than let THEM down? Sheesh!

Edited by Carl Brighton, 03 March 2007 - 05:40 PM.

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#13 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:49 PM

I really don't care about RED either way...until I start seeing some results, preferably on the big screen.
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#14 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:54 PM

I might ask you the same question.


Why on earth would you do that?

I, unlike you, don´t generalise. I make no claims one way or the other - I just point out that judging an entire group of people based on your assumptions from reading a slice of reduser.net is just not very scientific.
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#15 Carl Brighton

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:57 PM

In this business if you cannot dream a little
than whats the point?

Dream ... a little?!!!

I really don't care about RED either way...until I start seeing some results, preferably on the big screen.

Exactly my position, and that of a lot of the so-called "Hecklers".
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#16 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:00 PM

Who are you to evaluate the technical/practical skills of roughly 1460 RED reservation holders?! (Whom you can´t possibly know)

It is in arrogant and generalising claims like this that any useful discussion/dialogue is derailed every time.


I agree. The terminology itself is not correct, and we know as a matter of fact that only a small part of the reservation holders post on reduser.net, and only a small part of those behave like "technically illiterate".
I'm interested in RED, I have no reservation, and I'd love to get my hands on it once is out. This whole fanboys vs. hecklers is something we have to thank the internet for, just like the "lord of the rings vs. star wars" "debate" that raged on for years on forums. We can't really blame a company for being excited about a new product and about a group of people so interested in the product itself. It's unusual, but i don't necessarily see it as a negative thing, even more so because most people who will use the Red camera know what they're doing and have been shooting for years.

On the other hand, some people on reduser could come in here and see some people calling themselves Cinematographers without knowing anything about Cinematography.
I, for one, am getting tired of this useless and pointless debate, I guess I'll post again about red when I'll see it being used or when test will be done.

My very humble 2 cents.
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#17 Carl Brighton

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:02 PM

I wish to take back my earlier analogy, and submit instead that FanBoy and The Heckler sound as if they were ripped from the pages of a comic book, in which case I have a couple of questions:

1) Are Robert Rodriguez and Frank Miller going to co-direct the movie?, and
2) Is FanGirl going to look as good in her suit as CatWoman did?

Rowr! Enquiring minds. . .

Will all the main characters (good and bad) all have the same initials: "JJ"
(In the Superman Universe, they mostly have the initials "LL")

And will it be shot on ArriCam or Millenium do you think?
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#18 Ralph Oshiro

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 01:38 AM

In any case the problem is not so much that, as the automatic branding of anybody who hasn't drunk the Red Kool-Aid as some sort of hertetic, or as someone with a mindset stuck in the 1940s.

No, the problem is your "automatic branding" of all those with an interest in RED as "technically illiterate imbeciles."
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#19 Ralph Oshiro

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 03:45 AM

Just go visit the RED forums....
Most of the guys over there have
an intense passion for the art, craft and commerce
of film/video production.
In this business if you cannot dream a little
than whats the point?

Dream a little? In this business (or any business for that matter), you need to dream a LOT! I had this dream the other night . . . uh, nevermind. Damn, that Jessica Alba . . . Anyway, I checked out your site and think it's really cool! Is it all your footage, or do you host others and act as a broker? Is it all basically 1080i F900 footage or a mix of cameras? I bought a domain the other day to someday host 4K stock footage (another dream). But I'll probably just end up shooting ocean waves and bikini girls just to make 4K-based display art (not that anyone could actually display it yet) for some fancy five-star resort hotel as a trade-out.

Edited by Ralph Oshiro, 04 March 2007 - 03:45 AM.

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#20 Michael Schrengohst

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 11:56 AM

Hello Ralph,
We have HDCAM, VariCam, HVX200, Sony XDCam and some JVC and Sony HDV in the mix as well. We have a bunch of TimeLapse clips shot with DSLR's that are just awesome. Most of those are available as .jpg sequences. We are receiving 16MM and 35MM negs that will go direct to Uncompressed HD files and of course we will be supporting RED as well. You can contact me if you would like more info. Just visit the contact us page.
Thanks

Edited by Michael Schrengohst, 04 March 2007 - 11:58 AM.

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