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#1 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:11 AM

Did you ever do this? How does it look? Compared to bouncing a fresnel w/diffusion? All for a very soft light.




Thanks.
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#2 chris kempinski

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:34 AM

it's used all the time.

I once worked with a DP who would bounce an
image80 and put 2 more diffusion frames in front. not a
whole lot a light........ but very soft.
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#3 John Thomas

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:15 PM

I think that you'll find that if the b-board or foam-core is evenly lit, (smooth even illumination) then the apparent softness of the light will be a function of the distance of the subject to the board rather than the type of unit used to illuminate the board.
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#4 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:40 PM

I think that you'll find that if the b-board or foam-core is evenly lit, (smooth even illumination) then the apparent softness of the light will be a function of the distance of the subject to the board rather than the type of unit used to illuminate the board.



Yeah that was my take on it too; and the softness depends of the relative size of the source to the subject. That's why I was asking about bouncing kinoflos > won't it be inneficient - from a productivity pov - to do that, instead of bouncing some other light, if the FINAL bounce (the card/board) is the actual source that matters? I mean it's quite a decision to include an expensive unit such as a kinoflo, to bounce it, and get the same result you'd get with bouncing some other cheaper light > it doesn't worth the money, does it?

Any thoughts on that?
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#5 robert duke

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 01:26 PM

Heat should be a consideration. Having dealt with practical locations heat can sometimes be a huge issue. ever get locked in an office for a talking head and feel like you lost five pounds by the end of the day.

kino's are nice as a soft light and you can get a softer light by bouncing into a larger board in a narrow space. kino's were invented to deal with confined spaces. you can also have daylight tubes in them which makes for a cool super soft daylight source.
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#6 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:02 PM

kino's are already so soft, I couldn't think of a situation where I would diffuse AND bounce...except, if I'm shooting a really low key scene and just need a very subtle fill to get some more detail on my negative.

I'm pretty impressed with Kinoflo's transmission though. I used a 4 bank last night, and at about 7' it read f.4 on 500T. So, it's great for really tight and crowded locations, I would agree.
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#7 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:28 PM

kino's are already so soft, I couldn't think of a situation where I would diffuse AND bounce...except, if I'm shooting a really low key scene and just need a very subtle fill to get some more detail on my negative.

I'm pretty impressed with Kinoflo's transmission though. I used a 4 bank last night, and at about 7' it read f.4 on 500T. So, it's great for really tight and crowded locations, I would agree.




Well then, I see there are different opinions on bouncing kinos. I'm really curious if it's sort of a common or at least "normal" practice to do this, I'd hate to get funny looks from the crew on it and then find out they were right! :)
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#8 Rupe Whiteman

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:38 PM

As mentioned kinos already provide a diffused source. I use a divalite a lot and if i want a yet softer light from it you simply turn 2 of the fixtures off then sometimes I add a bit of trace/frost/muslin... they are such great kits...
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:53 PM

Don't spend any mental effort worrying if crew people will look at you funny for taking a light and using it in an unconventional way, as long as it does what it needs to do in an efficient manner. So often just before a camera rolls, I'll run over to a light bouncing off of a card and pan it halfway off, or close the barn doors a little to knock it down, or remove a side flag on a diffusion frame to the "raw" light spills into the background for a little extra exposure there, etc. It doesn't matter what you do as long as it produces good results effectively and efficiently.

If it produces light, it can be used.
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#10 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:00 PM

Don't spend any mental effort worrying if crew people will look at you funny for taking a light and using it in an unconventional way, as long as it does what it needs to do in an efficient manner. So often just before a camera rolls, I'll run over to a light bouncing off of a card and pan it halfway off, or close the barn doors a little to knock it down, or remove a side flag on a diffusion frame to the "raw" light spills into the background for a little extra exposure there, etc. It doesn't matter what you do as long as it produces good results effectively and efficiently.

If it produces light, it can be used.



Right, Mr. Mullen, that is exactly the word for what I was concerned about: efficiency. Are bounced kinos an efficient way (kinos are kinda expensive to rent) to get that kind of soft light? Or can you do about the same thing, by bouncing some other unit? Well, I've already asked this question a lil bit earlier, but the answer is still not very clear.
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#11 chris kempinski

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:46 PM

I think it's about intensity, I think that's the answer you are looking for.
because kino is already a "soft" source, you are going to get a softer
and more subtler effect than hitting the same foam with an open fresnel.
and a far greater f stop.
lighting can only be controlled 5 ways, and as David said, it all depends on
the situation at hand, what looks real and works.
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#12 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 07:16 PM

Well, I've already asked this question a lil bit earlier, but the answer is still not very clear.


Whatever anyone else here says about how something will look comparitively won't matter unless there's a live example being shown to you.

Go get a fresnel light and a Kinoflo, two that relatively read the same intensity at a set distance, then do a setup with your bounce & diffusion and tell us what difference you see.
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#13 Michael Nash

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 10:12 PM

Right, Mr. Mullen, that is exactly the word for what I was concerned about: efficiency. Are bounced kinos an efficient way (kinos are kinda expensive to rent) to get that kind of soft light? Or can you do about the same thing, by bouncing some other unit? Well, I've already asked this question a lil bit earlier, but the answer is still not very clear.


Efficient in what way? Cost? Heat? Power consumption? Light output compared to wattage? Setup time? Space? There are many ways to evaluate it...

It's always a matter of picking the right tool for the job -- and that "job" always changes. If all you want is a soft light, there are many ways to fill up a bounce card or frame of diffusion. You don't have to use a Kinoflo to create soft light, but you don't have to use a fresnel either. If the light used fills up the bounce or diffusion to your liking, then it works.

People have given me grief for using a 10K fresnel with two doubles in it to fill up a 12'x12' frame for night exteriors. Why two doubles and not a smaller unit? Because I need the spread of the large fresnel to fill the frame, within the space on the sidewalk we're using... or the 10K is already mounted and powered up, and all we have to do is wheel it around...
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#14 Richard Andrewski

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

Fluorescent is a "cool" way to get a softbox effect without using hot lights. That's all. You can use them interchangeably to get the same effect but one outputs less heat so there's no heat to be displaced by extra airconditioning. That's perhaps the efficiency you were talking about.

The other difference (for film) is that the green spike produced by fluorescent lights has to be balanced out through one of several methods somehow otherwise it can show up.

Digital mediums are not so susceptible to this spike so we don't have to worry about magenta gels or adding extra magenta color directly to the phosphor mix inside the tubes.
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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:56 PM

If you're carrying the Kinoflos anyway, then what difference does it make how you use them in different scenes -- I doubt you'll only be bouncing them. For wider shots, you may have to go direct or just with some diffusion over the unit. Then when you move in closer, you may try bouncing the same unit off of foamcore because now output is not so much of an issue if you can move the light closer.
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#16 Ram Shani

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:18 AM

i like to use the kino with 1/4 or 1/2 WD .

i open the kino doors as wide and put the diffusion on the doors so it make bigger source

if the kino is hang from the top i let the diffuser be bigger to create belly like so it become a little round which help to create little light to the eyes

i like to take 2- 4banks and put 8*8 1/4 WD far away as possible this create great soft light
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#17 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 03:41 AM

Efficient in what way? Cost? Heat? Power consumption? Light output compared to wattage? Setup time? Space? There are many ways to evaluate it...

It's always a matter of picking the right tool for the job -- and that "job" always changes. If all you want is a soft light, there are many ways to fill up a bounce card or frame of diffusion. You don't have to use a Kinoflo to create soft light, but you don't have to use a fresnel either. If the light used fills up the bounce or diffusion to your liking, then it works.

People have given me grief for using a 10K fresnel with two doubles in it to fill up a 12'x12' frame for night exteriors. Why two doubles and not a smaller unit? Because I need the spread of the large fresnel to fill the frame, within the space on the sidewalk we're using... or the 10K is already mounted and powered up, and all we have to do is wheel it around...



I meant efficient from a cost point of view; I was wondering if bounced kinos have anything special to them (the quality of the resulting soft light) that cannot be duplicated by using another unit for bounce, and thus would justify renting a kino just for that. I didn't do this until now, so I'm just trying to imagine and draw from your experience with this technique.

I think you can arrive at the same light quality by other means too, but I was curious if there is any secret about this, which would make bounced kinos unique. :) I guess there isn't.


Sorry if all this was annoying to you, just trying to understand some things.


Thank you very much everyone for your replies!

Oh, and maybe you'd like to take a look at my question posted in the "film stocks and processing" forum, if you have any time; not sure I picked the right forum to post that.


Thank you again.
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#18 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:44 PM

Odds are very low that once you rent a Kino that you'd only use it for bouncing off of things, so I'd stop worrying about it. I mean, there's absolutely no chance you'd turn the darn thing around and point at it the scene???

Yes, it would be silly to just rent a Kino only for some sort of low-level bounce light when you could do it with a Tweenie or something. But generally you use a light in multiple configurations -- I mean, you weren't planning on only bouncing the other lights as well?
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#19 Gabriel Cortez

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 03:34 PM

Odds are very low that once you rent a Kino that you'd only use it for bouncing off of things, so I'd stop worrying about it. I mean, there's absolutely no chance you'd turn the darn thing around and point at it the scene???

Yes, it would be silly to just rent a Kino only for some sort of low-level bounce light when you could do it with a Tweenie or something. But generally you use a light in multiple configurations -- I mean, you weren't planning on only bouncing the other lights as well?



:) Mr. Mullen, the basic point of the matter was if whether the darn thing yields some unique light when bounced, a light that couldn't be achieved by bouncing some other unit; but you say "you could do that with a Tweenie or something", so I guess there ain't anything special to "do that" with a kino. I haven't personally worked with kinos until now, so I wouldn't know any tricks there might be to them, that's why I'm asking stupid questions, perhaps.

And of course I wouldn't rent a kino just to use it for bouncing! That much I do know.

Sorry, it must be my fault that I'm not being too clear in my posts; English is not my native language, so please excuse.

Thank you very much for your help, Mr. Mullen. Please address my post in the the film stock and processing forum too, if you will; forgive the insistence.
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#20 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:11 PM

There are certainly unique qualities to every kind of light: fresnel vs. PAR vs. open-face, HMI vs. tungsten vs. fluorescent -- in texture, color, power efficiency, etc. sometimes I think people get overly obsessed with those differences when how you use the light can have a bigger effect.

So while I'm not going to say there is no difference at all between a bounced Kino versus a tungsten lamp with diffusion on the barn doors being bounced, assuming you match the color, there are other mitigating factors like how well can you fill the bounce surface with the tungsten lamp. Perhaps in a small space, you'll be able to fill a bounce surface easier with a Kino up close than a tungsten fresnel up close, a Kino being already a softer source. But if you compared bouncing a 2' 2-bank Kino versus a 2K Zip softlight, I don't think there would be a big difference in softness, just a difference in output.

But there may be situations where bounced Kinos may be the best way to achieve a very soft lighting effect.
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