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Beaulieu 4008


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#1 alfredoparra

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 09:08 PM

I just installed a rotory encoder in my beaulieu 4008 zm 2, I removed the factory circut board and all of the electronics, the rotory encoder cost me $15.00 off of ebay, im using the original factory dc motor, the shaft is 2mm diameter so when I bought the encoder I expected something small but it was just a bit bigger then what I wanted! I had to cut a slot opening for the rotor disk, that was easy! Now the next step, im installing an onboard computer, its called a basic time stamp and im also adding a motor controller thats called motormind B, the basic stamp cost $40.00 and motormind b cost $35.00 total cost for crystal sync $115.00 im programming the basic stamp this week to run at 24 fps, later I might add a switch to change speeds for timelap or slow motion FXs, im connecting the lens zoom motor onto the stamp as well! this website where i bought my parts is www.parallax.com just in case you want to crystal sync your super 8mm cam! If I knew how to upload pics here I would so you guys can see my project! After im done im going to sell the camera on ebay and im moving on to super 16
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#2 Gianni Raineri

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:24 PM

.... If I knew how to upload pics here I would so you guys can see my project! After im done im going to sell the camera on ebay and im moving on to super 16



If you can upgrade a 4008 ZM2, it's easy to illustrate your posts with pictures... Upload the pix to some server somewhere, like flickr.com or filmshooting.com gallery, then right click on the image and open the image into a new window or tab, copy its url (http://domain.net/filename.jpg) and paste it into the box that pops up when you click on the little tree icon in the formatting bar above the text editor... preview then post..

Gianni
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#3 alfredoparra

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:34 PM

If you can upgrade a 4008 ZM2, it's easy to illustrate your posts with pictures... Upload the pix to some server somewhere, like flickr.com or filmshooting.com gallery, then right click on the image and open the image into a new window or tab, copy its url (http://domain.net/filename.jpg) and paste it into the box that pops up when you click on the little tree icon in the formatting bar above the text editor... preview then post..

Gianni


I got lost with your instructions but tell me how to upload video footage, I dont go to filmshooting.com bunch of
crazy rude ignorant jealous clowns that make threats there!
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#4 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:51 PM

I have a basic stamp sitting in a closet. Any info you want to share about incorporating it into the camera and programming it I would love to hear.
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#5 alfredoparra

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 11:00 PM

I have a basic stamp sitting in a closet. Any info you want to share about incorporating it into the camera and programming it I would love to hear.


do you have the basic stamp 1 or 2? all you need a an encoder and motormind B, motormind b cost $35.00 and the encoder can cost up to $60.00 if your doing a 4008 you need a 2mm shaft size encoder any other type of camera im not sure as I only play around with the Beaulieu, if your stamp is basic stamp 1 I dont know about it! im not sure what you have??
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#6 Gianni Raineri

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 03:26 AM

I since have discovered the "File Attachemts" link in the replying form. It allows you to browse to and attach a small jpeg to your post, buy addding the attachment...

Gianni

I got lost with your instructions but tell me how to upload video footage, I dont go to filmshooting.com bunch of
crazy rude ignorant jealous clowns that make threats there!


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#7 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 11:35 PM

do you have the basic stamp 1 or 2? all you need a an encoder and motormind B, motormind b cost $35.00 and the encoder can cost up to $60.00 if your doing a 4008 you need a 2mm shaft size encoder any other type of camera im not sure as I only play around with the Beaulieu, if your stamp is basic stamp 1 I dont know about it! im not sure what you have??



O.K. I just dug thought my closet to find that I have a basic stamp 2 and a board of education.
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#8 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 11:57 PM

Also, I may be missing something but looking over the documentation for the motor controller I don't see that this is crystal controlled. It seems that its just an electronic controller. Where where is the crystal control?
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#9 Nick Mulder

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 02:44 AM

Basic stamps, PICs, AVRs etc.. all have xtals in the cct for which they derive their timebase

Xtal ccts can also be achieved with PLL's (phase locked loops) - zero programming involved at a much cheaper cost...

But good on ya! its nice to see people figuring out that all this film tech business is not too hard to figure out for yourself (aside from making lenses and imaging sensors it would seem)
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#10 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 12:19 PM

Basic stamps, PICs, AVRs etc.. all have xtals in the cct for which they derive their timebase


Nick I am pretty much a nOOb when it comes to this stuff. So you are saying that the basic stamp itself has a crystal on board? Wouldn't the crystal have to be on the motor controller unit since that is the unit that is directly controlling the speed? Or since the motor controller is controlled by the stamp, is it enough that the stamp has a crystal?

what is a cct?

feel free to correct me if i'm not getting this right.

If crystal control is actually achieveable with a stamp I'm going for it.
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#11 Nick Mulder

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:09 PM

Nick I am pretty much a nOOb when it comes to this stuff. So you are saying that the basic stamp itself has a crystal on board? Wouldn't the crystal have to be on the motor controller unit since that is the unit that is directly controlling the speed? Or since the motor controller is controlled by the stamp, is it enough that the stamp has a crystal?

what is a cct?

feel free to correct me if i'm not getting this right.

If crystal control is actually achieveable with a stamp I'm going for it.



Microcontrollers like PIC's, basic stamps, AVR's etc... need a clock signal in which to operate at which is provided by a external xtal cct (circuit = cct) - Not that I've ever tried but I believe its possible to change the xtal so your chip will run at different speeds, it is also possible to divide clock signals using CMOS logic chips such as the 4017, 4060 etc... So basically, yup basic stamps have xtals on board (well, I'm about %95 sure on that one not having used a basic stamp myself, I use OOPIC's and am getting into AVR's)

What is it exactly that you are referring to as the 'motor control unit' ? and what do you mean by 'directly controlling the speed' ? If a cct does what is required of it then it doesn't really matter how it does it - ie. the xtal can be located wherever ... maybe I have misunderstood your query ?

"is it enough that the stamp has a crystal?" - I'd say so yep ;) but maybe a particular design uses an xtal to drive the clock on a basic stamp and another xtal to provide the clock sync for the Proportional comparator part of the cct ...

I dont know too much about it but am aware that of the ccts I've analyzed I've seen that they are very simple beasts using only Proportional response - looking at the difference of where it should be to compared to where it is and providing corrective voltage relative to this - which can lead to constant overshoot oscillations, but this is 'fixed' by the slop/lag/momentum/friction in the system - these cct's used PLL's phase locked loops and encoders ...

I am building a servo controller at the moment that uses AVR's exclusively and has a serial interface in which you can program the full PID parameters (proportional, integral and derivative response) from yer PC ... it should be pretty neat (I should say its not my design and the chips were provided already programmed) but you simply provide it any pulse signal and it will follow that with 'xtal' precision - (as an aside what defines xtal sync ?) - anyways, so if my motor has a 500ppr encoder and I'm running off a 1:1 shaft if I give it a 24x500 = 12000Hz signal, I will have 24fps xtal

As you can see with high count encoders the resolution of possible xtal speeds is high

hope my early morning ramble makes sense
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#12 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:42 PM

Microcontrollers like PIC's, basic stamps, AVR's etc... need a clock signal in which to operate at which is provided by a external xtal cct (circuit = cct) - Not that I've ever tried but I believe its possible to change the xtal so your chip will run at different speeds, it is also possible to divide clock signals using CMOS logic chips such as the 4017, 4060 etc... So basically, yup basic stamps have xtals on board (well, I'm about %95 sure on that one not having used a basic stamp myself, I use OOPIC's and am getting into AVR's)


o.k.

What is it exactly that you are referring to as the 'motor control unit' ? and what do you mean by 'directly controlling the speed' ? If a cct does what is required of it then it doesn't really matter how it does it - ie. the xtal can be located wherever ... maybe I have misunderstood your query ?


I don't think you are misuunderstood me, I just thought that the basic stamp had to be used in conjunction with a motor mind unit. See page 10 figure 4 of this document:

http://www.parallax..../MotorMindB.pdf

Maybe this is not the correct configurataion for controlling a super 8 camera, but it looked to me that this was close to what the OP was describing.


As I understand it now I would need to:
-Mount my basic stamp on a different board (which one. i am not sure)
-Conntect that board to the motor mind unit
-Remove the existing electronics from my camera
-Put the basic stamp / mother board & motor mind in the camera and connect to the motor.

is this right?

thanks
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#13 Nick Mulder

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:25 PM

As I understand it now I would need to:
-Mount my basic stamp on a different board (which one. i am not sure)
-Conntect that board to the motor mind unit
-Remove the existing electronics from my camera
-Put the basic stamp / mother board & motor mind in the camera and connect to the motor.

is this right?

thanks


there are so many different ways to achieve the end you are after - but since you have a basic stamp then the motormind seems a good way to go ... and I now see why you were thinking the way you were

I've no experience with the motormind myself but it seems to be like many things are going now in that a lot of the complexity of popular applications (sensors, LCD's, motor controllers etc...) have been packaged into little chips that run via RS232 signals from microcontrollers - 232 is super helpful for robotics nerds who want to keep pin count down on their
precious Stamps/OOPICs etc...

The OOPIC even has a pre-defined object that interfaces directly with it: http://www.oopic.com/omotormind.htm

Its kind of a false economy in some ways as you are simply farming out processes to other chips that the original one could handle in the first place, but you just didn't know how to program it in there for yerself (and hence the maker of these motorminds etc... is making money off your ignorance, but we all have to start somewhere...)

I dont know what basic stamp board you have nor do I have experience with them, but I imagine its has either a parallel or serial programming interface for your PC and hopefully some sort of 'prototyping area' ? Putting it on another board has some advantages but also some disadvantages depending on what you have exactly ...

Advantages:

No confusing unused cct bulk ... ie. you can streamline the cct to exactly what you require..
You have your programmer free to program the other Stamps you buy for other applications

Disadvantages:

You have to make another board! Veroboard, breadboard, acid etch/CNC mill yer own PCB whatever - its time consuming buying all the bits and thinking about how best to configure things ...
Watch the pins on yer Stamp bend as you pull it out of the mount (cos you didn't get the $$$ ZIF mounts)
You are using a chip that is way over-specced for the application and has heaps of redundant applications, (save this disadvantage for future reference though)


Anyways - yes. make a new board or connect the motormind to the set up you already have ...

"Remove your existing electronics" - take it easy here, just remove power to that section, try to be the least invasive as possible in case you change your mind

"Put the basic stamp / mother board & motor mind in the camera and connect to the motor." - yup ... well, make sure its going before putting too much work into making it pretty - I don't know anything about your camera also but assume it has an encoder ? motormind wont work without one as it is a closed loop system (PI control, much better than straight P)

Edited by Nick Mulder, 19 March 2007 - 04:28 PM.

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#14 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 05:32 PM

Can I tangent here a bit?

I am curious if you know the difference between doing what we are talking about and the electronics that the cameras comes with? Since the method we are describing is inexpensive and fairly simple, I'm wondering why its not native to super 8 cameras? I suppose one answer is that this technology did not yet exist in the 60s, 70s and the 80s. (I have a beaulieu 5008s)

So what happens when the battery starts to loose its charge and the voltage drops? can the stamp be programmed to stop the motor if voltage drops or if the speed changes? I'd imagine that this is not all that difficult to do but we have not discussed it.

What happened to the OP? I'd like to hear more about his experience.
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#15 Nick Mulder

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 06:00 PM

Can I tangent here a bit?

I am curious if you know the difference between doing what we are talking about and the electronics that the cameras comes with? Since the method we are describing is inexpensive and fairly simple, I'm wondering why its not native to super 8 cameras? I suppose one answer is that this technology did not yet exist in the 60s, 70s and the 80s. (I have a beaulieu 5008s)

So what happens when the battery starts to loose its charge and the voltage drops? can the stamp be programmed to stop the motor if voltage drops or if the speed changes? I'd imagine that this is not all that difficult to do but we have not discussed it.

What happened to the OP? I'd like to hear more about his experience.


No idea of the original electronics of the camera ... if its anything like my Bolex EL, its just a crappy 'regulated' speed, that can run +/- 1 fps either way if it chooses - I think they held back on installing the very cheap xtal units so they could make a buck selling them as aftermarket accessories

The method you are describing is very simple from your perspective, but a poop load of work has been put into it from the developers end to make it that simple - the microcontrollers we have today as hobbyists weren't around in the 80's no - but xtal ccts were - what I am saying is that a basic Stamp and motormind are way over-specced for the application in mind - and a cct could be developed for much less using PLL's and simple logic gate wotnots, yep, you need the knowledge to get it going but even this stuff is dumbed down somewhat for certain applications in mind - heh, sorry, not sure who I'm directing that rant at, probably myself, for not learning this stuff earlier .

Again, my theory is that it was possibly a marketing thing holding back the xtal components for higher cost cameras -

"Battery starts to lose its charge" - Do you know how voltage regulators work ? not so much the physics but the functionality that is ... give them a voltage higher than that required and they will regulate the higher voltage into the lower required one, giving the extra energy off as heat - so if you require say 7.2Volts you plug in a 12v battery to yer VReg and it will give 7.2Volts well until the batt is down to 9V charge ... (I think it needs it to be 2V or so higher for higher current drains)

Your basic stamp will have one - probably a 7805 (78 = +ve supply 05 = 5V) - a three pronged TO-220 package bent over with a heatsink screwed onto it

So just keep your batts charged and you'll be fine - but yes you could set up your Stamp to look at a voltage and stop things if it falls below a certain value - maybe tricky if the same voltage is driving the cct that tests itself -

also if the voltage dropped that would make the motor go slower which the motormind would recognize as fewer pings from the encoder per time unit of your choice and therefore pump more voltage into it, but if the battery doesn't have the power to give then its game over - no catastrophe, just recharge them


This is all typed in one big blah - not much editing going on apart from a spell check, please point out any inconsistencies/confusion ...
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