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Pushing 7218


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#1 Shan Christopher

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 12:07 AM

(I know there's currently another thread right at the top with the same topic, but I didn't want to hijack it, as the focus is different. If this is wrong just delete this and i'll post it in there.)

I'm shooting a short on 7218 in 2 weeks, on an Arri ST probably using Cooke Kinetal lenses, that will be telecined to SD (probably Mini-DV) at University on some dodgy old machine.

From searching online, even though people say this stock is fine to rate at 500, a lot of people rate it at 320 (or 400), but i'd just like to check that I've understood why this is done.

By rating the stock at 320, thats the equivalent of overexposing 2/3 stop, the stock has more latitude for overexposure so no detail will be lost, and colours will be more saturated, than if it's processed normally. But then what, would it be printed down? Or is it fine as it is?

On the shoot, we're likely not to have many lights, either a redhead or a dedo kit, and the film is mostly interiors, two scenes in which a guy is watching TV in the dark.

I'd like to try for a cold look, and as this is my first time shooting 16mm i'm hoping to learn as much as possible, so I'd like to try and achieve as much as possible in camera as opposed to digitally.

Would using an 80D for the interiors and an 85C for the exteriors (knowing British weather most likely be an overcast day), give a slight blue cast that's not too overpowering, with the exterior looking a little bluer? Also we might be filming in a tube station, which I assume has fluorescant lighting. How would that need to be filtered to be consistant?

So bearing in mind the lack of lights and my inadequacy concerning lighting, im thinking about pushing the film, not just to get an exposure, but also for aesthetic reasons; the film is about a man's decision to carry out a terrorist attack so I think well suited to a gritty look, also all the groups on the course have the same stock, so we want a noticably different look.

On the Kodak site, it says that push processing gives blue shadows and yellow highlights, but how noticable is that? Does it depend on how much the film is pushed? Is there any advantage to doing it that way, than grading it digitally?

And what should I rate the film as, what effect will the rating have on the image bearing in mind the push-processing? What kind of differences will there be between rating at 640 / 800 / 1000? What about a 2-push process?

I know the obvious answer is to say it's subjective...or it depends on the contents of scene etc, but I'd appreciate if someone could have a go at answering it beyond 'grainier' and 'not as grainy'.

For instance, what kind of differences might there be rating at 640 and pushing, compared to rating at 500 and not? What about the differences between a 1 and 2 push process, rating at 1000?

If these shots (http://www.cinematog...27&hl=7218&st=0) were filmed on 7218 and pushed a stop, instead of 7279, how might the grain/sharpness compare?

Thanks for your time.

Shan
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#2 Daniel Carruthers

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:21 PM

(I know there's currently another thread right at the top with the same topic, but I didn't want to hijack it, as the focus is different. If this is wrong just delete this and i'll post it in there.)

I'm shooting a short on 7218 in 2 weeks, on an Arri ST probably using Cooke Kinetal lenses, that will be telecined to SD (probably Mini-DV) at University on some dodgy old machine.

From searching online, even though people say this stock is fine to rate at 500, a lot of people rate it at 320 (or 400), but i'd just like to check that I've understood why this is done.

By rating the stock at 320, thats the equivalent of overexposing 2/3 stop, the stock has more latitude for overexposure so no detail will be lost, and colours will be more saturated, than if it's processed normally. But then what, would it be printed down? Or is it fine as it is?

On the shoot, we're likely not to have many lights, either a redhead or a dedo kit, and the film is mostly interiors, two scenes in which a guy is watching TV in the dark.

I'd like to try for a cold look, and as this is my first time shooting 16mm i'm hoping to learn as much as possible, so I'd like to try and achieve as much as possible in camera as opposed to digitally.

Would using an 80D for the interiors and an 85C for the exteriors (knowing British weather most likely be an overcast day), give a slight blue cast that's not too overpowering, with the exterior looking a little bluer? Also we might be filming in a tube station, which I assume has fluorescant lighting. How would that need to be filtered to be consistant?

So bearing in mind the lack of lights and my inadequacy concerning lighting, im thinking about pushing the film, not just to get an exposure, but also for aesthetic reasons; the film is about a man's decision to carry out a terrorist attack so I think well suited to a gritty look, also all the groups on the course have the same stock, so we want a noticably different look.

On the Kodak site, it says that push processing gives blue shadows and yellow highlights, but how noticable is that? Does it depend on how much the film is pushed? Is there any advantage to doing it that way, than grading it digitally?

And what should I rate the film as, what effect will the rating have on the image bearing in mind the push-processing? What kind of differences will there be between rating at 640 / 800 / 1000? What about a 2-push process?

I know the obvious answer is to say it's subjective...or it depends on the contents of scene etc, but I'd appreciate if someone could have a go at answering it beyond 'grainier' and 'not as grainy'.

For instance, what kind of differences might there be rating at 640 and pushing, compared to rating at 500 and not? What about the differences between a 1 and 2 push process, rating at 1000?

If these shots (http://www.cinematog...27&hl=7218&st=0) were filmed on 7218 and pushed a stop, instead of 7279, how might the grain/sharpness compare?

Thanks for your time.

Shan


get some short ends and do some tests.
If you want a cold look and if your shooting tungsten film dont use any 85 filters,thats of coarse if your shooting with daylight. you can also correct your tungsten lights with blue gels to match daylight.
If you print the stock down its called pulling, gives a softer contrast. it might not be the look your after.
You can still over expose a bit and process normally.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:31 PM

If you print the stock down its called pulling, gives a softer contrast. it might not be the look your after.
You can still over expose a bit and process normally.


Pulling is not the same thing as printing down. Pulling refers to pull-processing, reducing the development time or temperature to reduce the build-up of density during processing, often to counteract overexposure. If you overexpose and pull-process, you get softer contrast and colors.

But printing "down" just refers to darkening an image, traditionally by using higher printer lights when printing the negative. Generally this refers to normally processed footage that is denser than normal (overexposed) and needs to be corrected later to be normal in brightness.

Overexposing negative slightly (1/3 to 2/3 of stop) and developing normally to allow a slightly denser than normal negative gives you somewhat finer grain, richer blacks, better shadow detail. Slightly higher contrast and more saturation.

As for how to rate the film for a one-stop or two-stop push, again, it depends on if you want the final negative to be slightly denser than normal. So if you are rating 500T at 400 ASA for normal processing, then you'd rate it at 800 ASA for a one-stop push.

Since pushing is not an exact science, you don't get exactly one more stop of density when you ask for a one-stop push, it is a good idea to rate the stock slightly slower, and even more so if you ask for a two-stop push (i.e. don't rate 500T at 2000 ASA for a 2-stop push, be safe and rate it at 1200 or 1600 ASA.)
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Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

Wooden Camera

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

rebotnix Technologies

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

The Slider

Glidecam

Technodolly

Opal