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Canon 814 XL-S


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#1 jason duncan

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 09:32 AM

Hello all: I just bought a Canon 814xls. Two questions: One, there is what appears to be a 9v adaptor? Can I use this for indoor shooting? I've looked around for one with no luck. Two, In the past I've only used Reversal film but I never actually view the film, I have it transfered via a WorkPrinter XP to mini-dv tape and run it to my NLE program. Since this is the case, should I use Negative instead? I heard the quality is better plus it has a better lattitude and I'm not great with lighting yet. Either I can flip it or the telecine transfer can? Thanks
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#2 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 05:00 PM

Its not really a matter of "should" or of "quality" being better. Use what ever film you like and that meets your needs for what you are shooting.

There are a number of great S8 stocks now, so its about learning their strengths and weaknesses, what you like and don't like etc.
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#3 jacob thomas

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 04:41 AM

Hello all: I just bought a Canon 814xls. Two questions: One, there is what appears to be a 9v adaptor? Can I use this for indoor shooting? I've looked around for one with no luck. Two, In the past I've only used Reversal film but I never actually view the film, I have it transfered via a WorkPrinter XP to mini-dv tape and run it to my NLE program. Since this is the case, should I use Negative instead? I heard the quality is better plus it has a better lattitude and I'm not great with lighting yet. Either I can flip it or the telecine transfer can? Thanks


The workprinter was designed for reversal film, transfering negative on it is a much harder task but it can be done (Frame Discreet), however I would assume most negative film is transfered on a rank or better.

I think the 9v adapter was for an external battery pack designed for using the camera in extreme conditions where it would be an advantage to have the battery in warm pocket and not for plugging in to the mains with an adapter. (I don't know if that answers your question.)
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#4 jason duncan

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 12:28 PM

The workprinter was designed for reversal film, transfering negative on it is a much harder task but it can be done (Frame Discreet), however I would assume most negative film is transfered on a rank or better.

I think the 9v adapter was for an external battery pack designed for using the camera in extreme conditions where it would be an advantage to have the battery in warm pocket and not for plugging in to the mains with an adapter. (I don't know if that answers your question.)


Thank you. Justin at Frame Discreet used a Canon 1014xl-s for the super 8 movie Stuntman. I'll email him and see what he says.
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#5 Justin Lovell

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 09:22 PM

Hey Guys,

I've seen some great footage shot with the 1014xls that was neg stock. In comparison to the beaulieu 4008, the major benefit of the 1014 is its performance in low light. It rocks compared to the 4008.

Though, if you've got enough light, my style is to have a small shutter angle, which the 1014 can't deliver. You get those really crisp frames without much motion blur... it screams in your face film.... all depends on your content.. also the slo-mo on the 4008 is 70fps, whereas the 1014(xls) is only 36fps.

Some newer neg samples were posted on my site.

Also I just intercut some fuji 500t 16mm (2/3 stop underexposed) with some 500t 7218 super 8, and the biggest difference isn't the grain... but only the specs in the processing! The super 8 really shines. (Note that it was all handheld, so that helped to hide any jitter issues).
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 09:48 PM

Hey Guys,

I've seen some great footage shot with the 1014xls that was neg stock. In comparison to the beaulieu 4008, the major benefit of the 1014 is its performance in low light. It rocks compared to the 4008.

Though, if you've got enough light, my style is to have a small shutter angle, which the 1014 can't deliver....


Canon has a 220 degree shutter setting and a 150 degree shutter setting. Doesn't the 150 degree shutter give a sharp looking image?
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#7 Joseph Winchester

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 10:53 PM

The 814xls has two shutter angles: 150 and 220 (the sun is 150, the window is 220)

Exposure = FPS x 360 degrees / shutter angle

So,

E = 24 x 360 / 220 = 39.3
E = 1/40th sec

E = 24 x 360 / 150 = 57.6
E = 1/60th sec

So a shutter angle of 150 will give you a sharper motion at 1/60th , whereas the 220 gives more motion blur at 1/40th.

Edited by Joseph Winchester, 12 March 2007 - 10:56 PM.

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#8 Justin Lovell

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 11:19 PM

The 814xls has two shutter angles: 150 and 220 (the sun is 150, the window is 220)

Exposure = FPS x 360 degrees / shutter angle

So,

E = 24 x 360 / 220 = 39.3
E = 1/40th sec

E = 24 x 360 / 150 = 57.6
E = 1/60th sec

So a shutter angle of 150 will give you a sharper motion at 1/60th , whereas the 220 gives more motion blur at 1/40th.



Whereas the 4008 you can get effective shutter angles of (approx) 1/90th and 1/180th @ 24fps. Much less motion blur than the 814xls.
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#9 Joseph Winchester

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 11:40 PM

Sure, it has a guillontine shutter for higher speeds.

But it doesn't really matter, as jason has an 814...
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#10 Justin Lovell

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 11:52 PM

Sure, it has a guillontine shutter for higher speeds.

But it doesn't really matter, as jason has an 814...


True enough.

If you want to see what the difference is between a 150 and a 75 deg shutter the last sample clip on my site shows that. labeled "s8mm 7217 color treatment" It is near the end of the clip of a guys hands shaking. (ignore the funky color it was an old sampler for a client who was into that 'greenish' tint...) yek.

fyi shot with a nizo s800 with widened gate.

Edited by Justin Lovell, 12 March 2007 - 11:53 PM.

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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 11:38 AM

Whereas the 4008 you can get effective shutter angles of (approx) 1/90th and 1/180th @ 24fps. Much less motion blur than the 814xls.


At what shutter speed does less motion blur turn into a disjointing, stacatto effect? Is there a default shutter setting that is recognized for producing the sharpest look without looking too stacatto? Assuming the perfect shutter speed isn't 1/60th of a second (for 24 FPS), is it 1/90th, or somewhere in between?
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#12 Justin Lovell

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 09:52 PM

At what shutter speed does less motion blur turn into a disjointing, stacatto effect? Is there a default shutter setting that is recognized for producing the sharpest look without looking too stacatto? Assuming the perfect shutter speed isn't 1/60th of a second (for 24 FPS), is it 1/90th, or somewhere in between?


Do you have a camera that you can do _completely_ variable shutter speeds like that? At this point having a S8 camera with 2 settings for a variable shutter is like gold.

The perfect shutter speed without looking too 'staccato' is completely subjective and also dependent upon the speed of the movement in frame. (I know that's not the answer you wanted to hear, but what else can I say!)
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#13 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 10:16 PM

Do you have a camera that you can do _completely_ variable shutter speeds like that? At this point having a S8 camera with 2 settings for a variable shutter is like gold.

The perfect shutter speed without looking too 'staccato' is completely subjective and also dependent upon the speed of the movement in frame. (I know that's not the answer you wanted to hear, but what else can I say!)


No.

However I've always felt that the Canon's that have both a 220 degree and a 150 degree option really gave the filmmaker both light sensitivity flexiblity and a significantly faster shutter for a sharper looking picture. If I recall correctly, many Super-8 cameras not named Canon, Nizo, Nikon, or Beaulieu only offer one shutter speed choice at 24 FPS.

Might be useful to identify Super-8 cameras that offer more than one shutter speed setting for each filming speed.
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#14 Justin Lovell

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 10:23 PM

No.

However I've always felt that the Canon's that have both a 220 degree and a 150 degree option really gave the filmmaker both light sensitivity flexiblity and a significantly faster shutter for a sharper looking picture. If I recall correctly, many Super-8 cameras not named Canon, Nizo, Nikon, or Beaulieu only offer one shutter speed choice at 24 FPS.

Might be useful to identify Super-8 cameras that offer more than one shutter speed setting for each filming speed.



I think the canon 1014E can go down to 45 degree shutter as well as the nikon r10(?) rick palidwor could confirm that one.

The nizo can be 'jimmied' into an even smaller shutter angle with the 'CSST'... coffee stir stick technique. Which is basically just jamming something into the variable shutter lever to hold it at a smaller angle than it's 1/2 way marker. I did this on RAGE OF SILENCE (www.justinlovell.com).

(exposure tests will be necessary to figure out your exact effective shutter speed, and an external light meter, or just knowing how many stops to over/under expose from a normal shutter speed reading from the camera).
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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:02 PM

I recently noticed that my Canon 1014-XLS was flickering on some of my footage. Doug at Spectra Film and Video helped me solve the problem by mentioning that while he was transferring the footage on his rank cintel that he only noticed the flicker in one scene. In that particular scene I had used several different film stocks so it could not be the film cartridges "fault".

It was the first time I had had flicker with this particular camera and I could not figure out why it only happened in one scene when I had mixed film stocks in other scenes as well. Finally I realized what it probably was. I had been using the slower shutter speed setting of 220 degrees for most of the scenes but for this particular outdoors scene I kicked up the shutter speed to the faster setting of 150 degrees.

The scene with the flicker was shot at the faster shutter speed setting of 150 degrees. However, to further complicate the issue when I used the slow motion speed setting and the faster shutter speed, there was no flicker. So of the various possible combinations of 18, 24, & 36 FPS, all of those speeds worked fine with the slower shutter speed, but at the faster shutter speed, 36 FPS was fine, 24 was not used, 18 FPS was flickering, and I did not use the 9 FPS option.

If anyone wants to do a test to see if their camera has flicker, the type of scene that will usually reveal flicker are contrasty, backlit scenes such as shooting a treeline with the bright sky poking through in parts of the picture.

I really liked the flicker, so I am not sure I want to get the camera fixed. :D
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#16 Justin Lovell

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:28 PM

Funny, I've had a flicker issue with a 1014 in the past. I also noticed that when doing timelapse scenes, sometimes the shutter would not get out of the frame in time and i could see it blocking the corner of the image. beware!
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#17 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:28 PM

Funny, I've had a flicker issue with a 1014 in the past. I also noticed that when doing timelapse scenes, sometimes the shutter would not get out of the frame in time and i could see it blocking the corner of the image. beware!


Are you referring to the XLS or the earlier model?

The blocking of the corner could also be a wide open f-stop, and even vignetting if you were using a wide angle attachment. If it was the shutter, did it appear in each and every frame and in the same space or was it intermittent?
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#18 Justin Lovell

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 11:12 PM

Are you referring to the XLS or the earlier model?

The blocking of the corner could also be a wide open f-stop, and even vignetting if you were using a wide angle attachment. If it was the shutter, did it appear in each and every frame and in the same space or was it intermittent?



xls. it was the shutter. intermittent, and cut across the frame on an angle.
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#19 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:41 PM

xls. it was the shutter. intermittent, and cut across the frame on an angle.


In retrospect, do you think it might have been a similar issue to what I discovered for my XLS, that the strobing happened in the high speed shutter mode but not in the normal/lower speed shutter mode?

While this can be seen as a bad thing, is it also a good thing if one reserves the normal/lower speed shutter mode for pristine images and the higher speed mode for the funkier look? When this intermittent affect is added in edit rather than at the time of shooting, is it just as convincing as if it was done during the actual film shoot?

The fact that one may be able to control when the intermittent/slight strobe affect is added is kind of neat.
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#20 Justin Lovell

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 10:15 PM

In retrospect, do you think it might have been a similar issue to what I discovered for my XLS, that the strobing happened in the high speed shutter mode but not in the normal/lower speed shutter mode?

While this can be seen as a bad thing, is it also a good thing if one reserves the normal/lower speed shutter mode for pristine images and the higher speed mode for the funkier look? When this intermittent affect is added in edit rather than at the time of shooting, is it just as convincing as if it was done during the actual film shoot?

The fact that one may be able to control when the intermittent/slight strobe affect is added is kind of neat.



I've since gotten rid of the camera. Would be interesting to have around for 'flicker effect' if it were consistent. Sorry I can't say if it happened at different shutter angles, I never got around to testing that.
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