Jump to content


Photo

Mixing B/W and color stock!


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Rajavel Olhiveeran

Rajavel Olhiveeran
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • India

Posted 25 March 2007 - 02:21 PM

hi all
for my coming up feature film project i have planned to shoot in BW 5222 for the flash back sequnce and use 5274 (EXT DAY) and 5279 (INT Day/Night & EXT night) for present day seq. i do not have the budget for the DI. so i will have to be extremely careful in handling the final output of the film.

will i have trouble when i am intercutting the B/W negative and color negative VERY frequently?

i have planned to print the entire film (both B/w and color) on one color PRINT STOCK. is that OK?

any other tips on how to handle a situation like this. thanks . cheers!
  • 0

#2 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19765 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 25 March 2007 - 02:59 PM

If you're intercutting b&w and color, you don't much choice but to print the reel on one color print stock.

The main thing is to make sure that your negative is cut with the b&w shots on a separate "B" or "C" printing roll. Means that your final 35mm negative will not be straight cut but be A-B rolled probably. This is because there is such an extreme shift in printer light values for the b&w shots that the timing correction might lag a frame or two behind in quick cuts to b&w.
  • 0

#3 Rajavel Olhiveeran

Rajavel Olhiveeran
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • India

Posted 25 March 2007 - 03:12 PM

If you're intercutting b&w and color, you don't much choice but to print the reel on one color print stock.

The main thing is to make sure that your negative is cut with the b&w shots on a separate "B" or "C" printing roll. Means that your final 35mm negative will not be straight cut but be A-B rolled probably. This is because there is such an extreme shift in printer light values for the b&w shots that the timing correction might lag a frame or two behind in quick cuts to b&w.


thanks Mr.David
but what u said just didnt sink in to me......is there any book or source i can hunt to get that technical information in detail. OR if u could please explain to me...it will be great. thanks. cheers!
  • 0

#4 Dirk DeJonghe

Dirk DeJonghe
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 605 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Kortrijk,Belgium

Posted 25 March 2007 - 03:37 PM

What you also can do is to make a B&W Interpositive 5366 from the 5222 negatives, from this you then make a color intermediate negative on 5242 and this you can intercut with the original color negative or intercut with the DN if you are going to make one.

In this case you will have to do some tests to determine the best contrast, play with the processing times of the 5366 until the 5366/5242 match the rest of the production for contrast.

The main reason for putting the B&W negative on a separate B-roll as David suggests is also to allow additional filtration on the printer to compensate for the missing orange mask. Whatever you do, B&W negative and color positive are not really made for each other and will take some experimenting to get a good result.
  • 0

#5 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 25 March 2007 - 06:45 PM

i have planned to print the entire film (both B/w and color) on one color PRINT STOCK. is that OK?

any other tips on how to handle a situation like this. thanks . cheers!


Intercutting color and B&W silver image print film can be problematic, since the silver image film absorbs more infrared energy in the projector, and often will have a focus shift. Best to have splice free prints on color stock.

More and more B&W films are released on color stock, since some theatres have "lost the handle" on properly handling B&W silver image prints (heat issues, focus shift, need for print lubrication). Large volume release processing of B&W prints often requires special lab setup.
  • 0

#6 Dominic Case

Dominic Case
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1357 posts
  • Other
  • Sydney Australia

Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:48 AM

As David says, and Dirk explains a little more, you need to keep the b/w and colour negatives om separate rolls. Colour neg is orange masked, and colour print film is balanced to compensate for that. When you print directly from b/w neg onto colour print film, you need to make a very large colour correction in the printer. This will cause problems, so it is better to have the b/w neg in a separate roll so that the lab can fit an orange filter in the printer while printing that roll: it will give the b/w neg the same colour balance as colour neg would normally have.

With A & B rolls, you splice all the colour shots together as normal: where you would be putting the b/w neg, you simply replace it with black spacing. That's the A-roll. Then you make up a B-roll with black spacing where the colour shots would be, and the b/w neg where ir should be.

The lab prints the A-roll onto a roll of raw print stock. Then it rewinds the stock and makes a second pass through the printer, this time with the B-roll negative (and an orange filter). Result: a single printed roll,with every scene exposed in the right place on the print stock.

Because B/W and colour were not really designed to be used together, you will find the b/w is more contrasty than you expect, and you may have trouble keeping it neutral black & white - often it picks up pink highlights and green shadows. Dirk's duplication method gives you (or the lab) better control over contrast and colour, but it does push the cost up).

Finally, is there a book . . .?

Go to resource links on this site, and follow the library link. (or just click here!)
Look for this book . I hope you'll find it has the answers.
  • 0

#7 Rajavel Olhiveeran

Rajavel Olhiveeran
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • India

Posted 31 March 2007 - 12:59 PM

thanks people....
am gonna test this with a single can of 5222 ...and then if everything goes fine i will ...place the final order for 5222.
thanks
cheers!
  • 0


Paralinx LLC

Opal

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

Glidecam

CineLab

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

FJS International, LLC

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

CineTape

Wooden Camera

Tai Audio

The Slider

FJS International, LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Opal

Glidecam

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

CineLab

Willys Widgets

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Paralinx LLC