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Outdoor shoot with 1:85 scan


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#1 Daniel Garee

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 03:03 AM

Hello everyone,

This is mine first posting on a forum so I hope I don't sound too silly. I have a short coming up and I'm shooting 7217 outdoors, full frame aspect ration. I was wondering if anyone knew when you scan for widescreen(1.66 or 1.85) does the scanner scan the whole frame then crops the desired aspect ratio, or if you can single out the widscreen ratio to achieve higher resolution?
The second thing is that I'm shooting this entirely outdoors, a stop over exposed (to be dropped in the telecine suite) and in heavily wooded areas with some river shots. Any suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for everything,

Daniel Garee
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 06:45 AM

Depends on what you mean by a "scan" and to what recording format. Typically 16mm/Super-16 is transferred on a telecine like the Spirit, not on a film scanner, and recorded to an HD tape format, although it could go to a 2K data format.

Since HD is native 16x9 (1.78 : 1) you'd have to decide whether you wanted to crop the footage to 1.78 and fill the HD signal or side matte it in some way to preserve the whole 1.37 16mm frame or 1.68 Super-16 frame, or letterbox it slightly to 1.85. But typically if the end product is for HD or transfer to 35mm, you'd transfer to full-frame 16x9 HD (1.78). If this were recorded out to 35mm film, you'd have a hard-matted 1.78 image on the 35mm negative, and this would get slightly cropped to 1.85 during projection by the 1.85 projector mask.

I'm not sure if a 2K data transfer on a Spirit 2K for Super-16 is 2048 x 1219 (1.68) or 1920 x 1080 (1.78).
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#3 Daniel Garee

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 01:00 AM

Thanks David,

We were hoping to go through a 4k, but it was totally out of the budget. The 2k was what we were planning and it should be nice. Do you know if the 6k has come out yet?

Thanks,

Dan Garee
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 01:44 AM

Well a 2K scan of Super-16 is the same (more or less) as a 4K scan of 35mm since you're scanning at the same resolution for something that is half as wide.

The question is whether you are scanning & posting in 2K data mode or HD video mode on the Spirit, recorder, color-corrector, etc. If you are in data mode, then the aspect ratio just depends on how much you are scanning vertically. You could in theory scan the whole 1.68 : 1 full aperture of Super-16, keep it 1.68 : 1, and record this to 4-perf 35mm with a 1.68 : 1 hard matte (since the 4-perf 35mm frame is 1.33 : 1 full aperture). Then the projector will just mask it to 1.85 during projection.

Or you could trim it top & bottom to 1.78 during a telecine transfer to 16x9 HD.

Either way, the 35mm print will be projected with a 1.85 mask in most theaters so you'll probably want to compose the Super-16 frame with this later masking in mind.

The Arriscanner can do 6K but I don't know if it scans Super-16 or just 35mm. Most scanners just handle 35mm. Odds are really high that you'll be transferring on a Spirit if you are shooting in Super-16.
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#5 Martin Yernazian

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 04:24 AM

Dear David

That's great info... but isn't the max res that you can scan from S16 is 2k?

Best

Well a 2K scan of Super-16 is the same (more or less) as a 4K scan of 35mm since you're scanning at the same resolution for something that is half as wide.

The question is whether you are scanning & posting in 2K data mode or HD video mode on the Spirit, recorder, color-corrector, etc. If you are in data mode, then the aspect ratio just depends on how much you are scanning vertically. You could in theory scan the whole 1.68 : 1 full aperture of Super-16, keep it 1.68 : 1, and record this to 4-perf 35mm with a 1.68 : 1 hard matte (since the 4-perf 35mm frame is 1.33 : 1 full aperture). Then the projector will just mask it to 1.85 during projection.

Or you could trim it top & bottom to 1.78 during a telecine transfer to 16x9 HD.

Either way, the 35mm print will be projected with a 1.85 mask in most theaters so you'll probably want to compose the Super-16 frame with this later masking in mind.

The Arriscanner can do 6K but I don't know if it scans Super-16 or just 35mm. Most scanners just handle 35mm. Odds are really high that you'll be transferring on a Spirit if you are shooting in Super-16.


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#6 Adam Thompson

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 12:35 AM

Dear David

That's great info... but isn't the max res that you can scan from S16 is 2k?

Best


Actually if you talk to some guys, like those at Goldcrest post lab in NY, they find the best results come from scanning S16 at 3K and then converting it to 2K from an Arri scanner.
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#7 Adam Thompson

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 01:04 AM

Actually if you talk to some guys, like those at Goldcrest post lab in NY, they find the best results come from scanning S16 at 3K and then converting it to 2K from an Arri scanner.

I also recall:

I saw a S16 test projected on 35mm that came from an Imagica 2K scan. I thought it was 35mm and it looked a lot better than another following test from an HD cam (Sony F900 I think). Even on 35mm the HD look stuck out to me, and I wasn't told it was video until after I asked why it looked so cheap or strange (and it was a large budget project) - it had nothing to do with resolution, just that flat, boring video look, whoops, I think I'm getting off topic here!
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#8 Martin Yernazian

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 04:27 AM

Thanks for that great reply.... I had my doubts about how much you could scan s16...

well it seems that with the HDTV and so on S16 has plenty of life left....


Thanks

I also recall:

I saw a S16 test projected on 35mm that came from an Imagica 2K scan. I thought it was 35mm and it looked a lot better than another following test from an HD cam (Sony F900 I think). Even on 35mm the HD look stuck out to me, and I wasn't told it was video until after I asked why it looked so cheap or strange (and it was a large budget project) - it had nothing to do with resolution, just that flat, boring video look, whoops, I think I'm getting off topic here!


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#9 Adam Thompson

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 12:28 PM

I've been thinking lately that S16 may have a larger life than many think right now. If you consider the change to digital that will continue to evolve, the need for a true film texture may become more desirable for many projects. The best way to get there may be to use S16 instead of 35mm, which is looking overly sharp and more HD like every year. The ease of use and cost benefits of using S16 may change minds in it's direction over the latest digicam (because of it's video or too sharp look) or 35mm (which is very expensive and bulky).

It will still be years before huge change takes place I think. S16 may be the only way to cost effectively get a textured, truly organic film look in some years from now and with movies like The Last King of Scotland and much of Babel showing what it can look like, I'd just prefer to see everything on it! (yes films like Superman, Harry Potter, Terminator, etc may not fit S16 that well!) :)


Thanks for that great reply.... I had my doubts about how much you could scan s16...

well it seems that with the HDTV and so on S16 has plenty of life left....
Thanks


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Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

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