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#1 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 06:12 PM

I am shooting a music video on 35mm where I have a scene by the sea in black and white. I was wondering what would be the best way to achieve a rich contrasty look, with deep shadows and prominent highlights. Would it be shooting on black and white stock or achieving the look in post?
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#2 Max Jacoby

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 06:31 PM

I'd go with real black and white, the textures are much more interesting than all these smooth color stocks.
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#3 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 05:00 AM

I'd go with real black and white, the textures are much more interesting than all these smooth color stocks.


Do I have the same control over it in telecine as I would with color stocks? Am sure I'll have to do some twisting to achieve the scheme I am shooting for.
Any specific stock you'd suggest?
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#4 David Bradley

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 06:35 AM

perhaps if you shoot black and white film use a warming filter or even a red filter to acheive higher contrast. I found in some stills I have shot that this increased contrast without loosing any information in the highlights and lowlights.
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#5 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:10 AM

perhaps if you shoot black and white film use a warming filter or even a red filter to acheive higher contrast. I found in some stills I have shot that this increased contrast without loosing any information in the highlights and lowlights.


I usually use yellow or red filters when shooting photography in black and white.
Do you have a link to any of those stills? I'd love to take a look at them.
Thanks
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#6 Max Jacoby

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:54 AM

If you shoot color you have more control in post, because you'll be able to manipulate the individual colors and turn them black and white later on. So you could darken your blue sky witohut affecting the non-blue elements of the scene for instance.
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#7 Nick Mulder

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 02:25 PM

A polarizing filter will cut out reflections in case its 'deeper' you're after...
:blink: + B) = :ph34r: = :)
And you can dial in the amount you want so it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
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#8 Jarin Blaschke

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 02:06 AM

Modern color stocks will afford you more control in the telecine suite due to their notably greater latitute, but for that intangibly authentic black and white look, nothing beats the real thing. Having recently shot a 35mm B/W piece, I've found plus-X to be far preferable to Double-X in it's contrast and grain. Double -X can often look flat, murky and mottled in comparison, even after tweaks in telecine.

In general, I wouldn't recomend the conventional use of a polarizer in black and white, as it can reduce the sheen on skin and thus often the contrast. Use of color filters can be great, once you've chosen which colors to darken and which to lighten, and which filter will do what you want.
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#9 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 08:22 PM

I see Jarin. I am not going for the authentic look though. My look is kind of bathed with highlights with crushed shadows. It should look kind of vivid and hot, that is the intent. I am going for a style B&W here.
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#10 Jarin Blaschke

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 12:10 AM

Well, if you want a clean, sharp, modern black and white look, and are going to vieo only, I would say shoot a medium to low speed modern color stock and crank the contrast in telecine. In telecine, I would tweak the color channels to go for an orange filter look - boosting the red channel, and to a lesser degree the green channel while pushing down the blue. This is probably preferable to using and orange or orange-red filter to expose color stock. I'd be curious to hear other's opinions on this.

What may also look nice and slick is soft lighting on set that is crunched in telecine, versus hard light and high contrast that is simply transferred straight.



I see Jarin. I am not going for the authentic look though. My look is kind of bathed with highlights with crushed shadows. It should look kind of vivid and hot, that is the intent. I am going for a style B&W here.


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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 03:18 PM

Sorry Max, I love B&W as much as you, but for telecine, color negative is tops for this.

If you are going for a vintage look though, or you'd like grain, texture, ala Murder She Wrote (last TV show that finished on film in the US), then maybe transferring B&W neg would be right up your alley. Just bear in mind that it is difficult or impossible to eliminate dust and scratching with digital ice when working with real B&W neg. The algorhythm thinks all the grains of silver are dust too, hence the problem. . .
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#12 Sam Wells

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 03:56 PM

So don't use that dust busting scheme if that's the case.

Really, 35mm cleaned and telecined with any machine that has the PTR's....

Keep the gate and mags clean & other hygene.

B&W can look pretty clean on a Spirit..

-Sam
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#13 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 04:34 PM

What may also look nice and slick is soft lighting on set that is crunched in telecine, versus hard light and high contrast that is simply transferred straight.


Thanks guys for all the ideas & suggestions. I will post some still refs once I have it telecined.

Jarin, this is exactly how we're thinking to light the faces on set. Soft lighting, soft boxes, kenos, etc. and then in telecine we can overexpose it until it hits my target.
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#14 Kim Sargenius

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:53 PM

I'd go with real black and white, the textures are much more interesting than all these smooth color stocks.



Agree! Colour for B&W is just not quite the same, and I think it comes down to silver grain vs. dye clouds - dye clouds when desaturated are just blobs, not grain :P

Plus X neg with a Wratten #25, and if you want to be real gutsy play around with a polarizer as well :D



cheers,

Kim
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#15 David Bradley

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 09:34 PM

whilst the tips here are amazing as always, might I suggest that you purchase 'Painting with Light' by John Alton, I'm sure you've heard of it and I don't mean to patronise but I'm sure we'll all agree that if we are looking for that golden era / noiresque look then Alton's book is priceless.
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#16 Dan Goulder

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 09:43 PM

Since you're at the beach, I'd recommend Kodak 5231 B & W. for that vintage look. If needed, you can do a fine job of manual dust busting with the cloning tool in After Effects.
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#17 Tony Brown

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 03:40 PM

I do a lot of 5222 with 25a and pola, but I'm convinced that colour neg will get me closer to that Ansel Adams that everyone gives as a reference.

B&W processing has become quite inconsistent everywhere.......
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