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Please Hold RED Discussions


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#1 Tim Tyler

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 02:11 PM

I thought we agreed a while back that there would be no discussions on this site regarding the RED camera until one was available for use and/or testing?

Please refrain from further RED posts until then.
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#2 Richard Boddington

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 02:37 PM

Just out of curiosity...why not remove the Red forum all together until Red has a camera ready for sale?

R,
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#3 Carl Brighton

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 04:42 PM

I thought we agreed a while back that there would be no discussions on this site regarding the RED camera until one was available for use and/or testing?

Please refrain from further RED posts until then.


Well, with respect, Tim, you didn't actually say that in
this post (there may of course be others that I haven't seen of course).

All you said was that you wouldn't allow the "touting" of cameras that can't be tested. To me "touting" means promoting or discussing a product as though it really exists in the commercial sense, and a lot of the posts from the so-called "Red Haters" were more complaining about this practice than criticising a camera they neither they or the "touters" had seen.

Others were questioning the credentials of some of the more rabid fanboys.

In any case, the discussion did dry up rather abruptly recently and I rather suspect Jim Jannard knows the real reason. HE was the one who started it up again. I don't see anything wrong with a manufacturer telling us what he hopes or even expects to do, as long as he doesn't start using language that imples that it's all a done deal.

FWIW I thing my question about after-sales backup is a very valid one, but Jannard completely ignored it. But surely, if it prompts someone else to think about the same question(s) when they hadn't thought of it themselves, that can't be a bad thing (for the customer anyway). There are probably lot of thoughts that Jannard (and most manufacturers for that matter) would rather were not thought; does bringing them into the open make one a "heckler"? This is the attitude I seem to encounter over and over again here.

But anyway, NAB is not far off now, and I hope you will allow us some discusson space once some of us have actually had the opportunity to see one of the damned things :D
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#4 jan von krogh

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 06:21 PM

Just out of curiosity...why not remove the Red forum all together until Red has a camera ready for sale?

R,


a photo of the camera, the viewfinder, the monitor, power system, 15/19mm rod&rails and some more accesories which red sells - and which will be @ NAB in 4 days can be found here:
http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=1419

the question now at hands now is rather how many cameras per month will be delivered, and how fast red can ramp up serial production.

it seems they are targeting a rate of ~200 cameras a month, as jim jannard has stated that he would like to deliver the orderbacklog of all existing ~ 1500 reservations in 2007.
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#5 Walter Graff

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 07:53 PM

a photo of the camera, the viewfinder, the monitor, power system, 15/19mm rod&rails and some more accesories which red sells - and which will be @ NAB in 4 days can be found here:
http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=1419



Yea, I'd wait before discussing this camera. Considering they are marketing this camera as the next thing to take over Hollywood, I find it funny that the link above where all the juice and excitement about Red is generated is on what amounts to as a video hobbyist website. I would think if it was indeed such a pro camera it would have a bigger presence on more professional boards. Guess not... Ah marketing!!

Edited by WALTER GRAFF, 09 April 2007 - 07:54 PM.

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#6 Jim Jannard

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 08:37 PM

Yea, I'd wait before discussing this camera. Considering they are marketing this camera as the next thing to take over Hollywood, I find it funny that the link above where all the juice and excitement about Red is generated is on what amounts to as a video hobbyist website. I would think if it was indeed such a pro camera it would have a bigger presence on more professional boards. Guess not... Ah marketing!!


I'll keep this post with me until next Monday...

Jim
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#7 jan von krogh

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 08:44 PM

Considering they are marketing this camera as the next thing to take over Hollywood, I find it funny that the link above where all the juice and excitement about Red is generated is on what amounts to as a video hobbyist website. I would think if it was indeed such a pro camera it would have a bigger presence on more professional boards. Guess not... Ah marketing!!

seems they are rather starting with new zealand....
heres is one of jim jannards businessjets visiting peter jackson 2 weeks ago.

http://redcamera23.b...01_archive.html

furthermore, in germany several of the top10 rental houses have ordered the maximum amount of 5 red cameras.

we only ordered 2 so far, as we want to fully understand all aspect of the camera in the field before expanding our order - what we will have to, it seems.
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#8 Richard Boddington

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 09:53 PM

Jim and the rest can blather on about Red all they want. Since it's a digital acquisition fromat it is still fundamentally flawed vs film. Of course we all know why and we don't need to re-hash it.


R,

D & C 1:25.
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#9 Dan Goulder

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:01 PM

Jim and the rest can blather on about Red all they want. Since it's a digital acquisition fromat it is still fundamentally flawed vs film. Of course we all know why and we don't need to re-hash it.

...and if you think that statement won't provoke some major re-hash, I've got some ocean front property to sell you in...Oklahoma.
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#10 Richard Boddington

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:12 PM

Not to worry, Tim will shut her down soon :D

R,
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#11 Rob.m.Neilson

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:18 PM

I think I would rather rent/buy a camera from a company whose reps dont have useless arguments with people on message boards.
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#12 jan von krogh

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:52 PM

Since it's a digital acquisition fromat it is still fundamentally flawed vs film. Of course we all know why and we don't need to re-hash it.

SCNR : it seems that a many of "we" disagree here, or are you only referring to voices in your head?
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#13 Walter Graff

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 11:42 PM

SCNR : it seems that a many of "we" disagree here, or are you only referring to voices in your head?


That's the reason why each post is labeled with only one name. It's all one opinion. We forget that the 'we' is only you and 'us' only me but that is the way our dysfunctional society understands life, hence why folks take things personally. If there is one lesson it's that when you take things personally it's that you are taking someone's poison and making it your own. When someone tells you that you are stupid, if you believe what they say then you have taken their poison and let their world affect yours when in reality we should realize that no matter what anyone says, it's about them, not us. And when we take the world personality is is a sign of complete selfishness as we think the world revolves around us. A great read that everyone in life should be made to read is "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz (a sample)


I think video can be as equal to film as 16 can be to 35, it's all about the talent and the methods of getting it there and viewing it. Sometimes the better of the two looks worse and sometimes it does not but well shot video can look just as good if not indistinguishable to film and does every day in my opinion.
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#14 Max Jacoby

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 05:18 AM

furthermore, in germany several of the top10 rental houses have ordered the maximum amount of 5 red cameras.

Does that list include Arri Rental, Vantage Film and FGV Schmiedle, since they really are the best German rental houses.
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#15 Werner Klipsch

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 06:01 AM

Jim and the rest can blather on about Red all they want. Since it's a digital acquisition fromat it is still fundamentally flawed vs film. Of course we all know why and we don't need to re-hash it.
R,

D & C 1:25.

Actually, there is not a terrible lot that is wrong with the "digital" part of it. The problem is the analog pickup device that is at the very start of the chain namely the CMOS or CCD sensors used. Jannard has quoted a dynamic range of 66dB, which is nothing like the dynamic range of film, and is not a terrible lot different to what has been presented before in the "Digital" arena.


One might as well own an all digital state of the art recording studio, but record your master songs on audio cassettes!

Still I await next week with enormous interest!
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#16 Walter Graff

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 09:23 AM

Actually, there is not a terrible lot that is wrong with the "digital" part of it. The problem is the analog pickup device that is at the very start of the chain namely the CMOS or CCD sensors used. Jannard has quoted a dynamic range of 66dB, which is nothing like the dynamic range of film, and is not a terrible lot different to what has been presented before in the "Digital" arena.


One might as well own an all digital state of the art recording studio, but record your master songs on audio cassettes!

Still I await next week with enormous interest!


Funny because we live in an analog world. That's how our eyes see and the method that film records. The digital problem you speak of it multi faceted, namely the cost of manufacturing CCDs, CMOS, etc. You will see a lot of new CMOS cameras and promises of more this year at NAB as that is the future because it's far cheaper to produce and from a manufacturing standpoint the yields are greater. The front end of cameras is a costly proposition so manufactures have not made a 100% efficient chip because 99% of the industry doesn't need more than what is out there. Hence where a niche product like RED can find it's place. And the other problem is getting the info to a usable state. Processing an image more than the way we do it is costly and not needed by 90% of those that use what is out there. Then of course its about how it's recorded. All these steps when combined can be the limiting factor. All can be addressed but when doing R/D and manufacturing you have to figure out what will work best for the largest audience unless you are creating a niche product like RED seems to be based on their marketing.

Many discussions on a cinematography board are from a cinematographers perspective but from a manufacturing perspective it's not always about high end cinematography necessarily or should I say a very small percentage of all video use.
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