Jump to content


Photo

Dalsa demo tonight


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 12:57 AM

I attended the presentation at Dalsa for the ASC. Saw the mock-up for the new smaller-sized Dalsa Evolution (not a working model) -- was a more reasonable size than the Origin, like an Arri-535 with a 400' mag to put it in rough perspective.

Saw some tests from the Origin projected on a 2K DLP Christie projector. Looked very impressive, very clean, nice skintones, like 50 ASA 35mm photography.

Also saw the first anamorphic lens they have built to achieve a scope aspect ratio onto a 1.96 : 1 sensor. It was built by Eric Peterson and Dan Sasaki at A&S Precision; both used to work for Panavision.

It's a beautiful lens. It has a front anamorphic design, 50mm T/1.4, with a 1.22X squeeze (very mild). The size is similar to a normal 50mm Cooke-S4 or Primo spherical. Minimal distortion & breathing when rack-focusing. Built from elements from a Leitz medium-format lens.

They are creating a whole spherical set for the Origin from these Leitz elements, maybe some others, even though only 35mm cine lenses wider-angle than 32mm will vignette on the Origin; it seemed better to build a matching set in all the focal lengths that projected an image that definitely cleared the edges of the sensor.

Eric said that he wanted to build complete sets with a contrast that would be better-suited for the Origin's digital sensor, i.e. less contrasty than Zeiss.
  • 0

#2 Lance Flores

Lance Flores
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Producer
  • San Antonio/Dallas/Detroit

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:09 AM

I attended the presentation at Dalsa for the ASC. Saw the mock-up for the new smaller-sized Dalsa Evolution (not a working model) -- was a more reasonable size than the Origin, like an Arri-535 with a 400' mag to put it in rough perspective.

Saw some tests from the Origin projected on a 2K DLP Christie projector. Looked very impressive, very clean, nice skintones, like 50 ASA 35mm photography.

Also saw the first anamorphic lens they have built to achieve a scope aspect ratio onto a 1.96 : 1 sensor. It was built by Eric Peterson and Dan Sasaki at A&S Precision; both used to work for Panavision.

It's a beautiful lens. It has a front anamorphic design, 50mm T/1.4, with a 1.22X squeeze (very mild). The size is similar to a normal 50mm Cooke-S4 or Primo spherical. Minimal distortion & breathing when rack-focusing. Built from elements from a Leitz medium-format lens.

They are creating a whole spherical set for the Origin from these Leitz elements, maybe some others, even though only 35mm cine lenses wider-angle than 32mm will vignette on the Origin; it seemed better to build a matching set in all the focal lengths that projected an image that definitely cleared the edges of the sensor.

Eric said that he wanted to build complete sets with a contrast that would be better-suited for the Origin's digital sensor, i.e. less contrasty than Zeiss.


I just got off the phone with Ron Vidor when your post came up. He got my message late and missed the presentation. But one of the things we were discussing was the monstrous size of the Dalsa. Ron's doing all our stedicam work and 2nd Unit DoP so he is concerned. Dalsa said they would halve the smaller version ready for our shoot. The test data I have from the camera looks great. Did the announce availability for the smaller format? I'm wondering if they will have it ready for us.
  • 0

#3 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:17 AM

Did the announce availability for the smaller format? I'm wondering if they will have it ready for us.


Sorry, but it sounded to me like they said "sometime next year". I could have misheard them. I was thinking though that the upcoming RED camera would probably make a good Steadicam camera (smaller size & weight, plus the lack of optical viewfinder not an issue), with the Dalsa as the studio "A" camera.

Or use a 35mm film camera for the Steadicam...

Or live with 2K for the Steadicam shots and use the Phantom HD. Or use an HD camera like the Viper.
  • 0

#4 Lance Flores

Lance Flores
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Producer
  • San Antonio/Dallas/Detroit

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:21 AM

Or use a 35mm film camera for the Steadicam...

Or live with 2K for the Steadicam shots and use the Phantom HD. Or use an HD camera like the Viper.


I thought it might go that way. Ron just finished a shoot with Arri digital. He liked it. Thought it did a good job. I done any evaluation with it. have no data. Good idea .. could use the Phantom 2K. It would be mostly used for the INT. portion of night raid scenes. It's got great sensitivity at low light and virtually no noise. Thanks David.

Edited by Lance Flores, 11 April 2007 - 01:26 AM.

  • 0

#5 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:23 AM

I thought it might go that way. Ron just finished a shoot withth Arri digital. He liked it.


Yes, RAW data mode from the Arri-D20 may be another option; it's not too big of a camera. You may have to live with being tethered unless there is a flash-mag option (which I think there is.)
  • 0

#6 Eric Steelberg ASC

Eric Steelberg ASC
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 11 April 2007 - 02:17 AM

Wait...what the hell? Dan Sasaki left Panavision?! When the hell did that happen?
  • 0

#7 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 11 April 2007 - 02:42 AM

Yeah, he did, left a few weeks ago.

I used to know Eric as well, but he's been gone from Panavision for some time. I was at Panavision on Dan's second to last day, it was weird. I was also there today, seeing his empty work station was even weirder.

He told me he was going freelance with Eric, I expect to see some really good stuff come from them.

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#8 Max Jacoby

Max Jacoby
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2955 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 April 2007 - 03:23 AM

It's a beautiful lens. It has a front anamorphic design, 50mm T/1.4, with a 1.22X squeeze (very mild). The size is similar to a normal 50mm Cooke-S4 or Primo spherical. Minimal distortion & breathing when rack-focusing. Built from elements from a Leitz medium-format lens.

Are you sure it's build from a medium format lens and not a regular 35mm stills lens? I am not aware of any Leitz medium format lenses, but on the other hand Dalsa have already adapted 35mm stills lenses for their camera because they cover the whole sensor.

Do you know if they're going to offer a 1.22 desqueeze in the optical viewfinder or leave it as it is? Since the squeeze favtor is so small I can already see actors demand that their close-ups be used unzqueezed so that they can look a bit slimmer on screen...
  • 0

#9 Lance Flores

Lance Flores
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Producer
  • San Antonio/Dallas/Detroit

Posted 11 April 2007 - 08:47 AM

Since the squeeze favtor is so small I can already see actors demand that their close-ups be used unzqueezed so that they can look a bit slimmer on screen...

Max you've just been looking in the wrong places. You confuse them with tele-centric and lens-centric. Look for the boxes labeled egocentric.
  • 0

#10 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:30 AM

Are you sure it's build from a medium format lens and not a regular 35mm stills lens? I am not aware of any Leitz medium format lenses, but on the other hand Dalsa have already adapted 35mm stills lenses for their camera because they cover the whole sensor.

Do you know if they're going to offer a 1.22 desqueeze in the optical viewfinder or leave it as it is? Since the squeeze favtor is so small I can already see actors demand that their close-ups be used unzqueezed so that they can look a bit slimmer on screen...


Yes, you're probably right since a 35mm still camera lens would cover 8-perf 35mm, and thus would cover the Dalsa sensor. Anyway, I think they only used certain elements from Leitz -- it seems to me that they are basically making a version of a Primo spherical but somehow managed to keep the anamorphic version from getting large.

They are working on the de-squeezer for the viewfinder; Rob Hummel has basically pushed the whole anamorphic approach for scope images but last night when I asked him about the viewfinder, he said "yes, it didn't occur to me until later that we'd have to do that, I was so excited about making the anamorphic lenses!"

Someone told me that Panavision in the 1960's secretly made an anamorphic lens with slightly more than a 2X squeeze for shooting Elizabeth Taylor's medium shots, to slim her down. Sounds like it could be a popular idea...
  • 0

#11 Max Jacoby

Max Jacoby
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2955 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:45 AM

Someone told me that Panavision in the 1960's secretly made an anamorphic lens with slightly more than a 2X squeeze for shooting Elizabeth Taylor's medium shots, to slim her down. Sounds like it could be a popular idea...

I think there's probably quite a bit of money to be made with the development of anamorphic lenses where one can vary the sqeeze factor. Actors would ask for these lenses every time!
  • 0

#12 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11944 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:49 AM

If a lens was "less contrasty", wouldn't that just imply that it was diffusing light into shadow areas like a mist or fog filter, and wouldn't that be a negative impact on resolution?

If it were possible to build a lens which had reduced contrast with no other side effects, we'd expect to have perfect contrast-reduction filters with zero resolution loss - and we don't.

Phil
  • 0

#13 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 10:56 AM

If a lens was "less contrasty", wouldn't that just imply that it was diffusing light into shadow areas like a mist or fog filter, and wouldn't that be a negative impact on resolution?

If it were possible to build a lens which had reduced contrast with no other side effects, we'd expect to have perfect contrast-reduction filters with zero resolution loss - and we don't.

Phil


We're talking about a narrow range of contrast difference, like how Cooke-S4's are less contrasty than Zeiss Master Primes, with Primos (and these Dalsa lenses probably) being somewhere in-between. It's not like putting in a mist filter. I don't think any lens has perfect flare resistence with zero loss of contrast anyway -- we're talking about light travelling through multiple pieces of glass afterall.

Yes, the more contrasty a lens is, the sharper it tends to look. But some people would rather have a lens with a more "pleasing" contrast rather than something super-snappy. Lens-making is more than a technical science, there's a bit of an art to it, like making a violin.
  • 0

#14 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 11 April 2007 - 11:26 AM

I'm way over my head here but it seems to me if you take a very aggressive aproach to correcting spherical aberration, using aspheric elements etc you can acheive a very contrasty and fine sharp focus which will be delineated by a fast fall off - Zeiss style - whereas a less agressive aproach could give you a more balanced contrast between higher and the middle spatial frequencies. You could find faces and even overall scenes benefitting.

This is nothing new, but I don't know enough about AA filtering to speculate further on these choices.

-Sam
  • 0

#15 Rupe Whiteman

Rupe Whiteman
  • Sustaining Members
  • 336 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 11 April 2007 - 12:20 PM

Are you sure it's build from a medium format lens and not a regular 35mm stills lens? I am not aware of any Leitz medium format lenses, but on the other hand Dalsa have already adapted 35mm stills lenses for their camera because they cover the whole sensor.


... Zeiss have been making Hasselblad lenses for years... Perhaps he meant these?

Rupe
  • 0

#16 Max Jacoby

Max Jacoby
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2955 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:07 PM

Dalsa have adapted both Leica/Leitz and Nikon 35mm stills lenses for use on their cameras. Unlike the ones that David mentioned these are not anamorphic.
  • 0

#17 Jarin Blaschke

Jarin Blaschke
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 238 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:08 PM

This is leaving the topic, but Hasselblad's lenses for the last few years (H1 era) have actually been made by Fuji.


... Zeiss have been making Hasselblad lenses for years... Perhaps he meant these?

Rupe


  • 0

#18 Arni Heimir

Arni Heimir
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 326 posts
  • Other
  • Reykjavik/Barcelona

Posted 11 April 2007 - 01:09 PM

Sorry, but it sounded to me like they said "sometime next year". I could have misheard them. I was thinking though that the upcoming RED camera would probably make a good Steadicam camera (smaller size & weight, plus the lack of optical viewfinder not an issue), with the Dalsa as the studio "A" camera.

Or use a 35mm film camera for the Steadicam...

Or live with 2K for the Steadicam shots and use the Phantom HD. Or use an HD camera like the Viper.


Wouldn't mixing digital cameras be like using two different stocks?
  • 0

#19 Lance Flores

Lance Flores
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Producer
  • San Antonio/Dallas/Detroit

Posted 11 April 2007 - 02:46 PM

Wouldn't mixing digital cameras be like using two different stocks?

In essence, yes. What we do is run a camera through characterization and normalize the data to the target profile, let's say the profile of the Dalsa Origin. Then we build correlation a database or algorithms. Then we decide on the profile from one camera with all the LUT etc. data as the target then extrapolate the data captured from any of the client cameras. The big problem is on the storage of the data. Once your sure you've got the interpolation correct you can archive the original. So basically what we would do is to take, for example a 2K image, the data and interpolate the chroma, etc information and then extrapolate it into the target 4K image applying various algorithms to adjust edges so they have the right contrast, and all that other silly stuff.

So what you end up doing is building meta files so that you don't have to generate large temporary intermediate files .. then you send command lines and metadata to a render farm and it does all the work. What you end up with is a file that virtually matches the 4K images from your target 4K camera model. You then archive the original capture. Sound complicated .. guess it is ... but after the first few runs you no longer need to go through the whole process. Once you build all the translation information you just simply submit the file location of the target data to the render engine with the appropriate command file.

Edited by Lance Flores, 11 April 2007 - 02:51 PM.

  • 0

#20 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 April 2007 - 05:48 PM

Wouldn't mixing digital cameras be like using two different stocks?


Don't movies do that all the time? Within the same scene, yes, it requires more work in post color-correction to match as well as possible, but there are often other mismatching factors as well anyway, like a zoom lens shot mixed with primes, an underexposed shot mixed with normal exposure, changes in sun and shade, etc.

So while it is not recommended, sometimes the practical advantage outweighs the issue of perfect matching of quality.
  • 0


rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

CineLab

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Opal

Technodolly

Willys Widgets

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

CineLab

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

FJS International, LLC

The Slider

Opal

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Tai Audio

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Ritter Battery

Technodolly

Glidecam

CineTape

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies