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16mm B&W Reversal Print to Color?


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#1 Luisa Ehrich

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:22 AM

Wondering what my options are to get 16mm B&W reversal onto color stock. Is there something I can have done at the lab or should I optically print the footage to color stock? And in that event, what happens to contrast?

Thanks for the help.
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 12:11 PM

Wondering what my options are to get 16mm B&W reversal onto color stock. Is there something I can have done at the lab or should I optically print the footage to color stock? And in that event, what happens to contrast?

Thanks for the help.


Why do you need it on color stock? Do you mean you need it on 16mm color negative? Why, because you're intercutting it into a 16mm color negative project for printing in 16mm?

"LEE", the instructions when you registered said to use a first and last name as your User Name. You can now go to My Controls and edit your Display Name to a real first and last name as per the forum rules. Thanks.
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#3 Luisa Ehrich

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 12:48 PM

Why do you need it on color stock? Do you mean you need it on 16mm color negative? Why, because you're intercutting it into a 16mm color negative project for printing in 16mm?

"LEE", the instructions when you registered said to use a first and last name as your User Name. You can now go to My Controls and edit your Display Name to a real first and last name as per the forum rules. Thanks.


Exactly, I'd like to intercut the footage into a 16mm color neg project to be printed in 16mm.

Username change on it's way.
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 03:18 PM

I guess the first question is why not use b&w negative film then?

If this were for a blow-up to 35mm, I wouldn't bother turning the 16mm b&w reversal to 16mm color negative, but if this is for a 16mm contact-print, then you need to end up with a b&w negative image. If it were on b&w negative stock, I'd suggest that you put it on a "C" printing roll when you conform the negative (into A-B-C checkerboard rolls).

But since you're copying it only color negative or internegative stock, conforming to an A-B roll would work.

Trouble with simply making a contact copy into color intermediate stock is that the emulsion ends up on the "wrong" side unless you can live with flipping the negative image to put it on the "correct" side (and ending up with a mirrored image -- you'd also have to warn the neg cutter). You could print through the base perhaps though that wouldn't look very good.

You'd need to use a 16mm optical printer and rephotograph the b&w positive image onto a color internegative. This could get expensive if you have a lot of footage to convert. It will also pick-up some contrast, grain, and probably some dirt & dust, 16mm being such a small format to be duping to 16mm.
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#5 Luisa Ehrich

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 08:38 PM

I guess the first question is why not use b&w negative film then?

If this were for a blow-up to 35mm, I wouldn't bother turning the 16mm b&w reversal to 16mm color negative, but if this is for a 16mm contact-print, then you need to end up with a b&w negative image. If it were on b&w negative stock, I'd suggest that you put it on a "C" printing roll when you conform the negative (into A-B-C checkerboard rolls).

But since you're copying it only color negative or internegative stock, conforming to an A-B roll would work.

Trouble with simply making a contact copy into color intermediate stock is that the emulsion ends up on the "wrong" side unless you can live with flipping the negative image to put it on the "correct" side (and ending up with a mirrored image -- you'd also have to warn the neg cutter). You could print through the base perhaps though that wouldn't look very good.

You'd need to use a 16mm optical printer and rephotograph the b&w positive image onto a color internegative. This could get expensive if you have a lot of footage to convert. It will also pick-up some contrast, grain, and probably some dirt & dust, 16mm being such a small format to be duping to 16mm.


Sounds like the best way to go is optical printing. I have access to a great optical printer, am meticulous about keeping it clean and have never had any problems with dirt and dust. Higher contrast might be an issue (and might deter me from rephotographing the footage) but grain is quite welcome in the project I'm working on.

I do have a question about your suggestion of using internegative. I've done 16mm blow-ups of Super-8 footage on the optical printer using 7212 and it looked great. What is the benefit of using internegative?

Also, in answer to a previous question of yours, I'm not not using B&W negative film by choice -- the reversal is something I decided I might like to use in a project after I'd already shot it.

Thanks.
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 12:41 AM

I do have a question about your suggestion of using internegative. I've done 16mm blow-ups of Super-8 footage on the optical printer using 7212 and it looked great. What is the benefit of using internegative?


Lower contrast and finer-grain. Basically the intermediate dupe stock is low-enough in contrast to not add much additional contrast. If you use camera negative stock, you're adding the contrast of the original to the contrast of the camera negative stock, so there is a more dramatic increase in contrast. Plus even 100T is much faster and therefore grainier than intermediate stock, which is extremely low in ASA (I don't know what it is, maybe 5 ASA?)
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#7 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 01:52 AM

Hi David!

Luisa in another post is asking about toning the film in the print, thats why i think he want a color print when his 16mm original is b&w.

i start thinking about this and i have a question. if i paint the negative and then print it to have a projection positive. i need to "paint negative" so when i have the positive print the colour is ok?
ex: if i paint blue in the negative in the positve goes yellow?

bye!!
General Treegan
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 10:41 AM

i start thinking about this and i have a question. if i paint the negative and then print it to have a projection positive. i need to "paint negative" so when i have the positive print the colour is ok?
ex: if i paint blue in the negative in the positve goes yellow?


In theory, yes, although a negative also have an overall brick orange color mask to consider if you were thinking of painting on clear leader as a "negative". Test, test, test...
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