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#1 Alberto Díaz

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 02:34 PM

I have writted this post at two forums: First Time Film Makers, and Lighting. And Nobody answered me. Please, Could you help me with this? :

"...Hi everybody, I´m from Spain, so I`ll try to explain my doubt in my bad english.
I have a short as a DP in a park with Sony HD Z1, and It´s a very low-budget short, so I can't use lights.
The problem is that I have to do an effect: the day is cloudy and suddenly the sun appears behind a cloud.

Most of the short is with the sun shinning, and only a few shots in a cloudy day. So I think that we will shoot the cloudy shots begining the day, before the sun enter in the park( there are a lot of big buildings around). Wich filter I need to correct the light?, because 85 is too much. Or It´s better to do it in post-production because there isn't much diference?

The sun appears in a short shot (close-up?) I´ve been thinking( just a little) in the way to do this without lights, in a sunny day and with the sun backlighting :

- Using light reflectant panels, 3 options:
A- Put it far and bring it near the scene slowly ( may be is too difficult hold the reflection over the actor), and cut the sun light in the background with black cloths.
B- Putting ND6 and ND3 gels over the light reflectant panel and remove it slowly: first Nd 6, then Nd 3
sounds crazy?
C) Cut the light reflectant panel with black cloths, and remove it slowly. Too evident?

What do you think?
Thank you Kru.
Alberto Díaz
Student from Madrid.
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#2 Nick Mulder

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 03:06 PM

When $$$ are low often time is spent instead ...

Is it out of the question that you and the cast/crew simply wait on a cloudy day for the sun to do what you want ?

Then you wont have to fart around with trying to trick everything ...

That being said - is there any thing to stop you from heading outside right now and trying out what you are suggesting with a stand-in or two ?
The gear is borrowed perhaps ?
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#3 Michael Nash

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 03:09 PM

I have writted this post at two forums: First Time Film Makers, and Lighting. And Nobody answered me. Please, Could you help me with this? :


I sympathize with your frustration in not getting any replies, but please do not cross-post or post in the wrong forum.
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#4 Alberto Díaz

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 04:25 PM

Sorry Michael, you´re right.

NICK MULDER, you said :
"Is it out of the question that you and the cast/crew simply wait on a cloudy day for the sun to do what you want "
No!! My idea is shoot the "cloudy shots " before the sun enter in the park ( only 2 -3 shots), after that shoot the "sunny shots" with the sun backlighting ( most of the short) and then shoot the shot where the sun appears. Do you understand me ' (sorry about my english)

But I can´t understand what do you say with this : "Then you wont have to fart around with trying to trick everything 2 and this : " is there any thing to stop you from heading outside right now and trying out what you are suggesting with a stand-in or two ?
The gear is borrowed perhaps? "
Please, expalin me this with a basic english ,I´m spanish and I can´t understand this!!

Edited by Alberto Díaz, 15 April 2007 - 04:26 PM.

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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 04:51 PM

I think no one answered you because you seem to be figuring it out for yourself.

The problem is that you really need a big light (on an overcast day) to fade up on the actor, but you don't have lights... and it's hard to make a reflector "fade up" the sun reflecting on it, not to mention for the reflector to work, it has to be sunny, so how do you avoid seeing sunlight in the background even if you use an overhead silk on the actors? You'd have to make sure the background was shaded or really out-of-focus.

Panning the reflector until the sun hits the actor may be good enough to create the fade-up effect.

It may be easier to first show the actor in overcast light, cut-away to a shot of the sun coming out of the clouds, and then cut back to the actor in the real sun.

The other idea may be to create a graduated overhead silk that is netted darker at one end and basically walk the silk away so that the actor gets brighter and then is in the hard sun. The problem is to not notice the shadow of the silk's edge and frame passing over the face of the actor just as the sun hits them.
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#6 ryan_bennett

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 05:07 PM

What about starting try exposing it a bit darker then just overexposing it a whole lot till it looks good because you're shooting video, right? I ask this because this confuses me:

Wich filter I need to correct the light?, because 85 is too much. Or It´s better to do it in post-production because there isn't much diference


Why do you need an 85 filter? You white balance video cameras. Do you mean which gel do you need for the lights, in that case it would be either get daylight balanced lights or CTB (Correct to Blue)
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#7 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 06:35 PM

Shooting underexposed under the sun won't get you the same look as overcast or pre-sunrise because you'll still have the highlights of a direct light source like the sun.

I like David's idea of incorporating a graduated silk, that is if you're able to get your hands on one. Or, perhaps you could underexpose a bit with an over head silk, then at the cue for when the sun appears, you can pull out the silk from overhead and bracket your f-stop JUST BARELY to really intensify the fact that the sun is now showing through. Plus, it could mask the fact that a silk is being pulled away from overhead.

You won't need any correction filters since you're shooting video and can just white balance.

either get daylight balanced lights or CTB (Correct to Blue)


Color Temperature Blue ;)
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#8 ryan_bennett

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:26 PM

Hahha, I was going to put both because I've heard them called both, maybe correct to blue was a joke to help memorize it's use. Personally, they're CTB or CTO to me.

B- Putting ND6 and ND3 gels over the light reflectant panel and remove it slowly: first Nd 6, then Nd 3
sounds crazy?


What about scrims? Personally I think a combination of what Jonathan, David and I said would pull it off, considering the resources that you have.

Edited by ryan_bennett, 16 April 2007 - 12:27 PM.

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#9 Nick Mulder

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:53 PM

When I said:

is there any thing to stop you from heading outside right now and trying out what you are suggesting with a stand-in or two ?


I was saying that what you have suggested already may work - the best way to find out is to try it - If you have the ability to do it without the full crew as a test, then try it ...
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#10 Dan Goldberg

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:17 PM

I must say the idea with a darker knitted silk sheet above the actors head would be my top choice, and slowly removing it until the actor is in hard sunlight. As long as the silk sheet is large enough to cover not only all of the actor, but the surrounding ground in the frame, it should be okay.

Good luck! :)
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#11 Alberto Díaz

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 04:17 PM

Thanks a lot to everybody. It´s a pity my bad english because I can´t express my self. As I said It´s a very-low budget short, so I think I can only get panel reflection panel ( but I will talk with the "producer" ).

My idea is to shoot in a sunny day, but shoot first the "cloudy shots " earlymorning ,before the sun enter in the park, after that the effect shot and the all sunny shots( the most of the short).

DAVID you says: "It may be easier to first show the actor in overcast light, cut-away to a shot of the sun coming out of the clouds, and then cut back to the actor in the real sun." It`s a good idea, but the director wants the effect in the same shot, I mean first It´s cloudy and the sun appears in the same shot. And for the backgrounds I will use black courtains and out of focus maximum as possible.
And "Panning the reflector until the sun hits the actor may be good enough to create the fade-up effect. Yeah I thought that, but I was afraid that It will be too evident. But if you say it, I´m absolutely sure that It works. Thanks .
Ryan, sorry about 85, I becamed crazy!! And I will underexpose a little ( may be more in post) in cloudy shots and overxpose( just a little ) in sunny shots.
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#12 Bruno Alzaga

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 04:47 PM

Que tal Alberto. Yo hablo español perfectamente y soy Gaffer y DoP. Quizas te pueda ayudar. Asi que plantea en español el problema asi nos evitamos errores, aunque mas o menos lo entendi. Tuve un experiencia hace poco en donde tenia que simular la salida del sol. El plano era un taza de cafe que estab en sombra y de a poco el sol que sali, la empezaba a iluminar. El efecto fue hecho con una bandera negra que cubria el luz que iba a iluminar la taza. Poco a poco, el Gaffer iba sacando la bandera y parecia que salia el sol. Realmente quedo muy pero muy bien.
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#13 Rodrigo Llano

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:54 AM

Estoy de acuerdo contigo Alberto.. esa tecnica es muy usada incluso en exteriores simulando amaneceres o atardeceres...

(no seria malo comenzar a realizar nuestros post en ambos idiomas... )

un abrazo

Rodrigo
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#14 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 03:05 PM

Quizas debemos de empezar una nueva "thread" solo para espanol ;)

Asi que, gente como yo mismo pueda aprendar el lenguaje que usan en producciones espanoles...por una cosa. Tengo planes para el futuro de trabajar con mas latinos, y tal vez viajar a Guatemala para hacer una peliculita.

que se cuiden
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#15 Rodrigo Llano

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:15 PM

Quizas debemos de empezar una nueva "thread" solo para espanol ;)



La tarea esta lanzada .....
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#16 SpikeUM

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 01:37 PM

If you can't afford a silk than you can try a low thread sheet or frosted shower curtain and have your friends stand on boxes out of frame holding it over the talent. Then use the reflector to fade up the light under the sheet or curtain.
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