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video: interview with Ted Schilowitz of RED @ NAB 2007 booth.


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#1 jan von krogh

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 03:07 PM

http://video.google....2...1&q=red NAB
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#2 jan von krogh

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 03:33 PM

ah, found 2 more.

timecapsule 2006:
http://www.youtube.c...A...ted&search=

and the wainting line in 2007...

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#3 Richard Boddington

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:19 PM

Wow! Sounds terrific!

Question, how many MB is one frame of Red 4K "video"?

I'm sure this has been answered before, but I'm a techno-peasant, so if some one has the answer handy I'd like to know.

Many thanks to the super duper Red crowd!

R,
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#4 jan von krogh

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:59 PM

Question, how many MB is one frame of Red 4K "video"?
I'm sure this has been answered before, but I'm a techno-peasant, so if some one has the answer handy I'd like to know.


in uncompressed / raw, >4k, 2540p
the uncompressed shots from David Stump, ASC, which i have here on our drives, are 72 Megabyte each frame.
however, they have been shot at 4900x2580 rgb16bits/channel with the prototype camera spike.
the images of the series model will be raw format, but "only" 12 bit/channel, at up to 60p.

as alternative, in redcode raw, which peter jackson used for shooting "crossing the line" on alphaseries model "natasha" & "boris", its wavelet raw @ 27 MB/s, which you can edit without any transcoding natively in apple FCS.

btw, seems that peter jackson has ordered the maximum amount of red one cameras, which red allows per customer. if you have more detailed question, his dop is at the red booth.

if you need the exact size before delivery to endusers start within the weeks after NAB, there are houndreds of people online who help at reduser.com or you might ask graeme nattress of RED.
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#5 Richard Boddington

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:11 PM

You're saying 27MB per frame? So 27 X 24 = 648MB/second?

A 7200 rpm drive on a G5 can play back this data rate in real time?

Thanks
R,
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#6 jan von krogh

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:23 PM

You're saying 27MB per frame? So 27 X 24 = 648MB/second?

72MB per frame in the prototype, not 27 - that is for uncompressed. the series will be slightly slower.

A 7200 rpm drive on a G5 can play back this data rate in real time?

no way, you will need a big bad raid for that, not just 10 drives.

if you want to edit on one single drive, then you can use redcode, as peter jackson did.

this is 27 MB/s, waveletcompressed, and can be played back & edited directly inside FCS on a mac without additional hardware, even on a macbook pro or similar windows system.

You also can use the quicktimewrapper, then any Quicktimecompliant software can access redcode directly.

in terms of datarates, you are pretty flexible.
1-120p@720,
1-60p@1080, 2k, 4k and 2540p.
http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml
shows all formats.

as alternative, you can use hd-sdi or duallink hd-sdi to go to hdcam sr or uncompressed disk etc, just like arri d20, panavision genesis or sony 750/900/950/23, but then you will only get less than ~20% of the cameras resolution and no raw.
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#7 Emmanuel Decarpentrie

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:24 PM

Jan said:

27 MB/s


That means: 27MB per second (for 4K at 24fps). Something ANY modern hard-drive can achieve... And that's pretty neat in my opinion :) The short movie shot by Peter Jackson was only 500GB in total for ALL the rushes (many hours of rushes, I guess, for a 12Minutes short). How much does a 500GB disk cost nowadays? About a hundred bucks doesn't it? Double that price for security-backup, but your still in for what? 200 bucks... Pretty nice indeed!
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#8 Richard Boddington

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:28 PM

Ah yes, I didn't know what the /s was.

Ok the project I am working on now was shot on 35mm and mastered to HDSR. I am exporting frames at 8MB which gives me a data rate of 192MB/second. This is for shots that need VFX work.

Now you're saying Red can achieve the same resolution and produce the same amount of colour information at 27MB/second?

If it can fine, I just don't understand how?

R,
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#9 Emmanuel Decarpentrie

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:36 AM

Now you're saying Red can achieve the same resolution and produce the same amount of colour information at 27MB/second?


That is correct!

If it can fine, I just don't understand how?


The "how" is called "JPEG2000" or "wavelet compression", revisited by a genius named G. Nattress...

The compression used by this camera makes it even more interesting, in my opinion, than its price or any other features for that matter. It really seems to make 4K shooting practical, unlike Red's competitors that are attached to large arrays of hard drives...

Hard to believe? Of course! Exactly like pretty much all the rest of the Red's story if you want my opinion. Yet, no matter how hard to believe this story is, I am no more on the "unbelievers" side, because I want to be honnest: the Red team did deliver! And the many thousands of people that are waiting more than an hour to get inside their boot at the NAB are a living proof that there truly are more than a couple of reasons to be excited about Red...

Edited by Emmanuel Decarpentrie, 19 April 2007 - 01:37 AM.

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#10 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:06 AM

One thing that does throw you at first is both SI and RED quote in MB/s - Megabytes per second, while everyone else quotes Mb/s Megabits per second. You have to multiply by 8 to convert the former to the latter.
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#11 jan von krogh

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:14 AM

One thing that does throw you at first is both SI and RED quote in MB/s - Megabytes per second, while everyone else quotes Mb/s Megabits per second. You have to multiply by 8 to convert the former to the latter.


i am pondering about one thing.
will it remain 27MB/s when shooting at 60P? so - higher framerate - higher datarate, or higher compression, or adjustable?

the human psyche is really funny. pre - nab everyone here at the company was like "hey, lets see how far they have come" - and now i can´t wait to get the camera in my hands and test it as there would be no tomorrow. and the ~8-10 week till delivery seem like eternity :)
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#12 Emmanuel Decarpentrie

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:52 AM

will it remain 27MB/s when shooting at 60P?


I highly doubt it, for the main reason that the 27MB/s has never been officially confirmed as a hard coded data rate. As far as I remember correctly, it always was described as an approximative data rate for 4K@24p. Furthermore, 4K can't be shot at 60P with Redcode Raw and no one knows exactly how much BW is required for shooting 2K, let alone 2K at 60p...
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#13 Mark Williams

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 06:05 AM

and now i can´t wait to get the camera in my hands and test it as there would be no tomorrow. and the ~8-10 week till delivery seem like eternity :)

Well they say tommorow never comes? Ive heard a rumour that its actually a film camera posing as a video camera however its only a rumour but it seems to have some evidence that indeed everything described so far would be possible if this were true?
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#14 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 06:25 AM

Well they say tommorow never comes? Ive heard a rumour that its actually a film camera posing as a video camera however its only a rumour but it seems to have some evidence that indeed everything described so far would be possible if this were true?



Oops, just for a second we had a thread about RED that was balanced and informative! We can't have that!Thank god Mark was here to sent it spiralling into lunacy!

Thanks!
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#15 jan von krogh

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 06:52 AM

Well they say tommorow never comes? Ive heard a rumour that its actually a film camera posing as a video camera however its only a rumour?


-cue twilight zone theme-
Ah, Mr. Mark Williams!
- cue twilight zone theme-

yes indeed, its a holographic film camera from the 1950ies, which then was 1952 given from hitler in south america to elvis, who could shrink it later on in the alien spacecrafts DI-suite in roswell, and was since then kept by JFK hiding in supermans antartic stronghold in the 80ies and 90ies - until they projected it now in cinerama at NAB2007 to prevent armageddon.
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#16 Mark Williams

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 07:16 AM

Oops, just for a second we had a thread about RED that was balanced and informative! We can't have that!Thank god Mark was here to sent it spiralling into lunacy!

Thanks!

Hi stuart lunacy? heaven forbid

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-cue twilight zone theme-
Ah, Mr. Mark Williams!
- cue twilight zone theme-

yes indeed, its a holographic film camera from the 1950ies, which then was 1952 given from hitler in south america to elvis, who could shrink it later on in the alien spacecrafts DI-suite in roswell, and was since then kept by JFK hiding in supermans antartic stronghold in the 80ies and 90ies - until they projected it now in cinerama at NAB2007 to prevent armageddon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here was me thinking they might send me a free camera?
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#17 Mark Williams

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 08:26 AM

Will their be any editing software? for this new camera obviously now that we can use full 4K resolution undoubtably in 64 bit color space On a laptop my concern is can I edit it in vegas? or just Las vegas?
mY theory is we will be using a codec of some kind to view as we edit or is this the new 12 times algorithms job? Sorry If I sound slightly confused but the speed with which we have to adapt to this new technology means I have to ask a lot of stupid questions all at once. PS wheres my free camera?
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#18 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:44 PM

Sorry If I sound slightly confused but the speed with which we have to adapt to this new technology means I have to ask a lot of stupid questions all at once.


Google is great for asking stupid questions Mark. The great thing about it, is that nobody will have a permanent record of all the moronic things you might want to say. It offers no judgement, and it responds almost instantly. Seriously, you should try it some time. You might even find that all your questions have been answered many, many, many times over.

Also, It will make this forum less painful for the rest of us to trawl through all the white noise.

No need to thank me,
R.
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#19 Mark Williams

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:57 PM

Google is great for asking stupid questions Mark. The great thing about it, is that nobody will have a permanent record of all the moronic things you might want to say. It offers no judgement, and it responds almost instantly. Seriously, you should try it some time. You might even find that all your questions have been answered many, many, many times over.

Also, It will make this forum less painful for the rest of us to trawl through all the white noise.

No need to thank me,
R.

Well if Im wrong then I apologise to everyone on the forum. Obviously I have probably made a fool of myself and accept that the camera exists now. I still havent seen any evidence for it but obviously I can clearly see David Mullen is vouching for it SO I will take the word of the professionals even though there is little in the way of anything tangible for now.
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#20 Andrew Ray

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 02:26 PM

I highly doubt it, for the main reason that the 27MB/s has never been officially confirmed as a hard coded data rate. As far as I remember correctly, it always was described as an approximative data rate for 4K@24p. Furthermore, 4K can't be shot at 60P with Redcode Raw and no one knows exactly how much BW is required for shooting 2K, let alone 2K at 60p...


You can calculate the speed by presuming that there will be minimum 11:1 compression.

Then take 3 (colors) X 4096 X 12 bits for each line X (times) number of lines per aspect ratio (for 2.35:1 there are 1743 lines)
This way you get number of bits per frame X 24 or 30 for frame rate.

So for 2:35 screen aspect at 30fps each second will contain following number of mega bytes.

3 X 12 X 4096 X 1743 X 30 /1024/1024/8 = 919.160Mbytes/sec = 7.35Gbits/sec
colors X bit per color X horizontal pixels X vertical pixels X frame per second / convert to kilos / convert to megas

So if each second of 4K/30fps delivers 919MBytes/s then after compression of 11:1 will be 83.55Mbytes (919/11)

Remember 1K=1024 and 1MB=1024X1024
The RED RAW compression ratio for now is 11 to 13 times.

BTW 4K you can shoot only at 30fps

Edited by Andrew Ray, 19 April 2007 - 02:30 PM.

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