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Krasnogorsk K3 Problem


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#1 Michael Whelan

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 06:33 AM

Hello,
I recently purchased a K3 from a reputable private seller who shot a lot of (amateur) footage. Just got my first roll I put through it back from the lab and everything looks perfect, the exposure metre even matches my Sekonic and the film loaded great.

The problem is, when I project the film on my Bauer P7 the image is not 100% still, it is vibrating a little vertically. The vibration gets worse when footage shot at 48fps is played. The image is not moving all over the place just a a slight shaking, enough to notice and cause distraction for the viewer.

Not sure if its the projector or a problem that happens when filming?
Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated, I need to shoot some important footage soon and need to know is my K3 destined for the garbage!!

Also, its one of the K3's with the name in Russian, read that this may indicate a less reliable camera.

Many thanks,
Michael
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#2 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 09:07 AM

Hmmm...examing the film by holding it up to the light or checking it with a loupe on a light box, is the image in each corresponding frame in the same relative position? If the vibration increases during 48fps footage, then it sounds likely that the camera is causing this problem. However, there could be a chance that the camera is fine but something went wrong with loading the film. Right after loading, did you give the film a short run at the slowest speed with the lid off to see how well it was transporting? If so, was there any excess movement or was the film running smoothly?
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#3 Michael Whelan

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 09:56 AM

Hi Patrick and thanks for your reply,

I just checked the film with a loupe on a lightbox and there doesn't seem to be any movement but at that size its ticky to be sure. I also cut some individual frames (I used CIR Catozzo pro so cuts should be accurate) and laid them on top of each other and there does seem to be a very minor shift, when projected it becomes more noticable, this could be the splicer though.

When I loaded the camera I was really careful to make sure everything ran smoothly and did a short run and everything seemed to be fine...but I don't have much experience with this!

M.
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#4 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 10:22 AM

Out of curiosity, although there is more vibration during the 48fps footage (which I assume means more up and down movement) is this excessive movement in slow motion just like the images on the screen? Cos I would think that if there was some unwanted camera movement occurring at faster frame rates, then that same movement would be slowed down during projection.

Edited by Patrick Cooper, 28 April 2007 - 10:25 AM.

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#5 Michael Whelan

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 10:36 AM

Yep, the vibration is like fast up and down movement.

Strange, the vibration is not in slow motion on the 48fps footage but much worse and also in real time.

M.
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#6 Michael Whelan

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 07:24 AM

Just had a thought that the vibration I am getting on the film could come from the tripod I was using? (Manfrotto designed for medium format still photography.)

The shot that the vibration is most notcable is a locked down shot with no camera movement. The lens is the Meteor 5-1 and the shot is on zoom no.32. The 48fps shot with more vibration is actually zoomed in more, around no. 50.


...any suggestions would be great, getting worried that my K3 is damaged.
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#7 Tim Carroll

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:47 AM

I would not rule out a tripod problem, as I have seen this before when a very heavy camera is put on a tripod that is not designed for a motion picture camera or is not designed for a camera that heavy.

But it sounds more to me like a registration problem with the camera. If the camera has a registration problem, it would be more noticeable when you film at 48 fps (slow motion). So I would do a registration test.

-Tim
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#8 Michael Whelan

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:56 AM

Hi Tim

Thanks for your reply.

Excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject but how would I perform a registration test?

And I can use a suitable tripod when making the test to rule out that as a cause for the problem.

Thanks,

Michael
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#9 Tim Carroll

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:37 PM

To do a simple registration test, make yourself a grid on a large piece of paper and tape it to the wall. Get your sturdy tripod and mount your camera, and focus it on the grid. Shoot ten or fifteen feet of the grid at half the exposure value. Then rewind the film and again focus the camera on the grid, but shift the camera just slightly and shoot ten to fifteen feet of the grid at half exposure. You are basically creating a double exposure of the grid, slightly shifted off center. Now after you process the film and view it, you can see if the lines on the grid from each of your exposures are steady in relation to each other, or if they get closer together then further apart as the film progresses. If the lines on the grid from both exposures are steady in relationship to each other, through the whole ten or fifteen feet of film, then it appears that the camera registration is good.

-Tim
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#10 Michael Whelan

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 08:43 AM

Thanks Tim, I will do a registration test a.s.a.p. and post back. If it is a registration problem, is this a major job to get repaired?

Also, my lab takes a couple of weeks to process the film, is there anything I could do in the meantime to try and solve the problem with the vibrating/jumpy film?

M.
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#11 Michael Collier

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 06:29 PM

Check out the action in the pressure plate. I was looking at mine and it seems weak. No pressure on the plate and you can easily get registration problems. also check out the action to move the loop formers. the black button at the bottom of the body pushes down the film sensor and pushes both formers out. be sure that motion is happening smoothly and they extend all the way out (you can only press with your finger, I guess you just gotta assume the pin is depressed the same amount when the door is placed.

also be sure teh registration pin movement is propper. that could be a small glitch. Another thing to consider is what are your standards? I have yet to get my first reel back from my k3, so I cannot say how stable it is for sure...but is it possible your looking for the super-steady picture of a pin-registration model and being disapointed because this is not that camera? something to consider. I'll send you my footage when the reel comes back and you can see if its any more or less stable than yours.
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#12 Michael Whelan

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 10:25 AM

Hi Michael
Thanks for the reply.


Check out the action in the pressure plate. I was looking at mine and it seems weak. No pressure on the plate and you can easily get registration problems.

The pressure plate seems to be fine, there is a very small amount of movement but it's not lifting away or anything like that.


also check out the action to move the loop formers. the black button at the bottom of the body pushes down the film sensor and pushes both formers out. be sure that motion is happening smoothly and they extend all the way out (you can only press with your finger, I guess you just gotta assume the pin is depressed the same amount when the door is placed.

When I loaded the film I made the loops myself to avoid the film running against the formers and getting scraped so this may not be an issue. However I had a look at the film sensor and it stands 3mm higher than the body. When i press the sensor 3mm the formers only move a small amount, I have to really press it to make the formers move out much.


also be sure teh registration pin movement is propper. that could be a small glitch.

Is this the black plastic thing 5mm in diameter that puts pressure on the plate, if so it seems fine. There is a tiny screw above it, I wonder does this increse/decrease the pressure on the plate?


Another thing to consider is what are your standards? I have yet to get my first reel back from my k3, so I cannot say how stable it is for sure...but is it possible your looking for the super-steady picture of a pin-registration model and being disapointed because this is not that camera? something to consider. I'll send you my footage when the reel comes back and you can see if its any more or less stable than yours.

This is a concern, perhaps I am looking for too much from the K3. I would have thought that the image might be quite stable though.
It would be great to see your footage, I have looked at other footage online and it seems pretty smooth, there is a lot of timelapse stuff which may have small movement anyway. The main problem with this is it is only really noticable when the camera is fixed to a tripod, if there is movement it distracts from the vibration. Perhaps it appears alot and people dont notice due to filming styles.


M.
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#13 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 11:41 AM

Unfortunately, the K3 doesn't have a registration pin. Though despite this, the camera can produce very steady footage. Perhaps yours needs a service or adjustment. Though no one can really say anything until after the registration test.
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#14 Michael Whelan

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:47 AM

Yeah, I do think this unsteady footage may be abnormal and there is most likely something minor (hopefully not major) wrong with the camera. I will run the registration test asap.

I have also found a local repair shop who have agreed to have a look at the camera and jumpy footage tomorrow.

I will post any results when I have them.

M.
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#15 Robin Leveille

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:21 PM

Hey whatsup, I just got a K3 and I have the exact same problem. I sent it to technicolor and got it digitized and the 48fps clips are crap, they jump around as you described. the cam has a problem with that. i havent been able to determine the problem yet either. i can assure you its got nothing to do with the tripod. the mechanicals inside are whats F***ing things up. ill post a clip of the problems soon. tell me if you found a solution yet
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#16 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:29 AM

Hey whatsup, I just got a K3 and I have the exact same problem. I sent it to technicolor and got it digitized and the 48fps clips are crap, they jump around as you described. the cam has a problem with that. i havent been able to determine the problem yet either. i can assure you its got nothing to do with the tripod. the mechanicals inside are whats F***ing things up. ill post a clip of the problems soon. tell me if you found a solution yet


At first, need service and adjust of K-3 camera.
K-3 create for normal speed shooting at 24 fps and high speed shooting can lost a some value of quality of footage.
Need check of main cog's wheel, additional film rolls and film channel.
The first test, the camera lost of size of loops or not.
the very important size of loops. The upper loop not must have too big size.

But, I prefer of other idea - to switch over to Kinor-16 SX-2M.
K-3 don't have registration pin - Kinor-16 have registration pin.
K-3 don't have film side clamping on film channel, Kinor-16 have clamping plate from side and from rear side of film.
Kinor-16 can use of 100 ft and 400 ft film magazines, have electrical motor and can be upgrade on crystal sync speed version, have a few zoom lenses, prime lenses, super wide angle ( 6 mm) prime lens and more.
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