Jump to content


Photo

My stock test results


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:05 AM

Hello all,

The other day I shot a VERY long day of tests (around 97 setups). I tested the following:
5218
5229
5279
All with a full bleach bypass to the negative and processed normal. I also tested both Primo and "Flare" lenses.

The processing was done at Deluxe (who were great!), and transferred to HDCam and DVCam on a Shadow at Entertainment Post. Deluxe also printed all the tests onto 2383.

When I did these tests I was frankly more interested in how they looked projected. The telecine was really just for production to look at. It was interesting that I really liked the flare lenses projected but I really prefer the primos in the telecine.

I also really disliked 5279 projected but really liked it in the telecine.

All day exterior shots were shot without an 85b, and the blue was timed out.

I only had one hour in the telecine so I honestly did not spend much time tweaking things. To be honest, the transfer is a bit sloppy. It?s no fault of the colorist, but really just a fault of having to rush through the transfer.

If anything, these tests show how good Panavision's Primo primes are. They are great lenses, and when compared to the flare lenses they really shine. All the tests were shot on a 40mm prime (of each series) at around a T-4 inside.

The flare lenses were made for Saving Private Ryan; they come in medium and heavy. Heavy has the T*Star coating completely removed from every element in the lens. These were the ones I tested. I think they are Super Speeds.

I don't think the T-stop scale on the flare lenses is accurate, as every shot with them looks about 1/3 to 1/2 stop under. The lighting setups NEVER changed the entire test (for the different contrast ranges I just had several lighting setups that we would turn on and off). Thus any variations between shots are the lenses, and in this case often the telecine. The color does not vary as much in the print.

For anyone wondering, I am going with 5229, full skip bleach with the flare lenses. All these images are from the DVCam tape, I haven't had time to get the HDCam material.

5218 BB Flare & then Primo
Posted Image
Posted Image

5218 BB Flare & then Primo 8:1 contrast
Posted Image
Posted Image

5218 Normal Flare & then Primo
Posted Image
Posted Image

5218 Normal Flare & then Primo 8:1
Posted Image
Posted Image

5229 BB Flare & then Primo
Posted Image
Posted Image
  • 0

#2 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:06 AM

5229 BB Flare & then Primo 8:1
Posted Image
Posted Image

5229 BB Flare & then Primo Outside (VERY HIGH CONTRAST RANGE ON ALL OUTSIDE STUFF)
Posted Image
Posted Image

5229 Normal Flare & then Primo
Posted Image
Posted Image

5229 Normal Flare & then Primo 8:1
Posted Image
Posted Image

5229 Normal Flare & then Primo Outside
Posted Image
Posted Image
  • 0

#3 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:07 AM

5279 BB Flare & then Primo (label wrong on slate)
Posted Image
Posted Image

5279 BB Flare & then Primo 8:1
Posted Image
Posted Image

5279 BB Flare & then Primo Outside
Posted Image
Posted Image

I have some more pictures of normal in the directory that these pictures are in, but I don't feel like posting anymore of them ;)

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#4 Felipe Perez-Burchard

Felipe Perez-Burchard
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles, CA USA / Mexico D.F., Mexico

Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:42 AM

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for posting your tests...

from the frame grabs, and given my LCD laptop screen in bad conditions (sorry, away from home) it looks like 5279 enhanced the flaring... on both lenses (but more so obviously on the flare lens) , from looking at the exterior shot in full light. Is this something that was apparent in the print too?
or is it more just the angle of the slate?
I didn't know the filmstock could change the way a highlight blooms, but I could see it making sense.

Thanks!

Best,
  • 0

#5 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:44 PM

79' is a grainier stock, thus it could cause the blooming to be more apparent (not to mention the stocks could scatter light a little differently).

It wasn't something I noticed much in the print though.
  • 0

#6 Charles MacDonald

Charles MacDonald
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1157 posts
  • Other
  • Stittsville Ontario Canada

Posted 29 April 2007 - 09:05 PM

Rmoving the coatings means that their is more reflection at each lens surface, which in turn would reduce the lens transmission, so you will probaly need to adjust the setings for more than indicated exposure.

With the Super Multi-coating world we live in it has gotten confortable to think that T stops are close to F-stops . A comfort that disapears when a lens sudenly appaers with out coatings.
  • 0

#7 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 29 April 2007 - 09:30 PM

Thats a good point.

The lenses do have T-Stop scales that Panavision put on them after making them flare lenses. That said, they were made years ago and have seen limited use since.

Before shooting, I will have to put them on a lens projector and see if they will update the markings. I wish Dan Sasaki was still around . . .
  • 0

#8 Peter Anderson

Peter Anderson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts
  • Student
  • London

Posted 13 February 2008 - 12:48 AM

How much faster do you rate your stock when going for a bleach bypass on the negative. Where all the tests above rated normally?
  • 0

#9 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:58 AM

All the tests were rated normally, the tests were to sort of partly figure out if I wanted to rate the stock "normal".

For the shoot I did rate the stock normal (i.e. 500 was 500 on the meter). I find that with my meter technique I tend to underexpose a little, which is fine because I normally rate a stock 2/3 of a stop slower to overexpose some. So knowing I tend to underexpose some builds a little safety into the bleach bypassed material.

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#10 Bart van Broekhoven

Bart van Broekhoven

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Haarlem, The Netherlands

Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:16 AM

Kevin,
Did you end up using DI before release? And if so: what grid did you work on? And did you calculate on that specific grid during shooting (for example knowing to go trough a 4K DI, allowing you to get more detail out of the neg. - or 2K, which probably wouldn't allow you to fully explore the stocks contrast-ratio - not to mention a - at least here in Holland - not uncommon HD DI!)?

Just wondering about your experiences about that...
reg. Bart
  • 0

#11 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 10 March 2008 - 02:48 PM

No, there will be no DI for the film, which is why I wanted to explore the in-camera options. I personally did not want a DI for the project.

As far as I know, a 2k vs. 4k DI has no impact on how much dynamic range you can pull out of the negative assuming all things are equal. Obviously the 4k has more resolution.
  • 0

#12 Serge Teulon

Serge Teulon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London UK

Posted 11 March 2008 - 12:06 PM

Hey Kevin,

Thanks for the stills.
It seems to me that the flare desaturates the image and reduces the contrast too. I wonder whether that is my screen...or its a fact.
On the first example(5218) why did you add a ND.6 on the primo shot?

Cheers
S
  • 0

#13 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 12 March 2008 - 01:42 PM

Yes a flare will reduce the saturation and contrast [i dont just mean these Lens] i must say i much prefer the look of the flare lens over the Primos .
  • 0

#14 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 12 March 2008 - 06:44 PM

I preferred the look as well, especially projected. The flare lenses desaturated and lowered the contrast of the image.

I ended up using the flare lenses, and am really glad I did.

The ND.6 was probably so that I could keep the stop the same though out the tests.

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#15 J Costantini

J Costantini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 144 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Rio de Janeiro

Posted 20 March 2008 - 09:42 PM

I preferred the look as well, especially projected. The flare lenses desaturated and lowered the contrast of the image.

I ended up using the flare lenses, and am really glad I did.

The ND.6 was probably so that I could keep the stop the same though out the tests.

Kevin Zanit


Hi Kevin
Can you tell us a little bit more about these FLARE lenses?? Personally I had never heard about them. Have they been designed specially for the film? By whom? At Mr. Kaminsky's request?

Thanks
  • 0

#16 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 20 March 2008 - 11:14 PM

As far as I know they were developed by Dan Sasaki with Kaminski, though I really don't know who had what idea or how that process happened.

The lenses are pretty simple, just old Super Speeds (I think) with their anti-flare coatings removed. Some of them have the coatings partially removed/ all the elements have the coatings removed, or a few. Some are designated 'heavy' others 'light'. They are really not matched or organized, which was really the point of the lenses, to be very organic looking. I mean disorganized to the point that a few have some p-touch labels saying "Heavy" or "Light" and tons of dust, these are rarely used.

I wanted more of a matched set then Kaminski did, so I had them go through probably 50 lenses to get a roughly matched amount of flare from a lens projector. There were also several versions of each focal length, such as 3 different 50mm lenses. So I would take the 3, just put them on the camera and choose the one I liked best, pretty subjective.

I have no idea how matched they were even after shooting the entire thing! As I have seen the cut develop, I have definitely seen some mismatches, but I also have no idea if some of the differences were in the telecine of the dallies because I usually had two cameras running. That said, I am very happy with them, I think they had a great look for the project.

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#17 J Costantini

J Costantini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 144 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Rio de Janeiro

Posted 22 March 2008 - 09:49 PM

As far as I know they were developed by Dan Sasaki with Kaminski, though I really don't know who had what idea or how that process happened.

The lenses are pretty simple, just old Super Speeds (I think) with their anti-flare coatings removed. Some of them have the coatings partially removed/ all the elements have the coatings removed, or a few. Some are designated 'heavy' others 'light'. They are really not matched or organized, which was really the point of the lenses, to be very organic looking. I mean disorganized to the point that a few have some p-touch labels saying "Heavy" or "Light" and tons of dust, these are rarely used.

I wanted more of a matched set then Kaminski did, so I had them go through probably 50 lenses to get a roughly matched amount of flare from a lens projector. There were also several versions of each focal length, such as 3 different 50mm lenses. So I would take the 3, just put them on the camera and choose the one I liked best, pretty subjective.

I have no idea how matched they were even after shooting the entire thing! As I have seen the cut develop, I have definitely seen some mismatches, but I also have no idea if some of the differences were in the telecine of the dallies because I usually had two cameras running. That said, I am very happy with them, I think they had a great look for the project.

Kevin Zanit


thanks
  • 0


Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineTape

The Slider

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

FJS International, LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

Technodolly

Wooden Camera

Paralinx LLC

Glidecam

CineLab

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets

Opal

Metropolis Post

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

Rig Wheels Passport

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Technodolly

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineTape

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks