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#1 bertrand mouly

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 08:49 AM

Hello;

I'm preparing a feature shot in 35 mm. scope with HAWKS lenses.
most of the film take place in interiors ( appartment; rooms...)
with day and night effects.
i will choose kodak 5218 or 5229 ( less saturated)
I won't have the possibility of making digital grading ( or D.I)
but i can " chemically" work on inter negative or inter positive

Could you give me some directions to follow in order to achieve a general desaturated
look without " crushing" the blacks and in trying to keep reddish color as much as possible
( red lips-red dress which must "pop" from the picture)
of course there is "bleach bypass" but maybe you tried other solutions ???
I planned to shot some tests in two weeks....

In advance thank you for reading me ( and please be kind with my english!)
best regards
bertrand
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#2 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 11:52 AM

Any process with bleach bypass will affect the saturation of the reds which you don't want. There are ways to make an IP/DN with desaturated colors with normal contrast and normal blacks but not without affecting the saturation of the reds.
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#3 Eric Steelberg ASC

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 11:54 AM

Underexposing a little and printing up will help. And yes, of course you can play with versions of ACE or ENR depending on the lab you're using.

What has been done before, which I did on a commercial once, is to make a b&w print of the entire film and do an optical to blend color and b&w negs, controlling the saturation somewhat. I wouldn't recommend it though as it's not very cost effective and hard to find the skill at a lab to do it properly.

The best thing I can suggest is to choose the lab for your film, tell them what you want to do, and shoot some tests. Labs are more than willing to help develop looks with DPs.

Once you have a 'look' you like, then work with your makeup artist and costumer and test different kinds of red lipstick and clothes.
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#4 bertrand mouly

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 01:02 PM

Underexposing a little and printing up will help. And yes, of course you can play with versions of ACE or ENR depending on the lab you're using.

What has been done before, which I did on a commercial once, is to make a b&w print of the entire film and do an optical to blend color and b&w negs, controlling the saturation somewhat. I wouldn't recommend it though as it's not very cost effective and hard to find the skill at a lab to do it properly.

The best thing I can suggest is to choose the lab for your film, tell them what you want to do, and shoot some tests. Labs are more than willing to help develop looks with DPs.

Once you have a 'look' you like, then work with your makeup artist and costumer and test different kinds of red lipstick and clothes.


I've already heard about "mixing" two negative ( one b&w and colour) on the same positive... it sounds good ....but as you noticed it's for sure too expensive for us ( small budget; simpliest technical way possible !)
Maybe an ENR on the positive would be nice ( with deep black) but how does it look if you do it on inter positive instead off the last print??? for sure the result must be different???

But your are right about the LAB...i will call them as soon as possible;
thanks again and other ideas are welcome!

bertrand mouly
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#5 bertrand mouly

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 01:32 PM

Any process with bleach bypass will affect the saturation of the reds which you don't want. There are ways to make an IP/DN with desaturated colors with normal contrast and normal blacks but not without affecting the saturation of the reds.


It seems pretty difficult to achieve so?
thank you for helping ...maybe i can use the "way" of desaturate you are talking about on the I.P. and try to avoid colors on set appart bright red that we can control?
could you please devellop what you say about "ways of doing it without change contrast and black?" in advance thanks again

bertrand
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 06:40 PM

Basically what I did on "Northfork" was lower color and contrast by using smoke and diffusion, plus flashing the negative -- and then adding back contrast but also lowering color by doing a skip-bleach to the print.

One thing with desaturation is generally primary colors like red seem to drop away slower than pastel colors, so if you can art direct the scene in grays, pastels, pale blues, but have primary red (or even better, art direct the movie as much in grey as possible, with the red accents) then even after desaturation, the reds should stand out.

If you can live with the two-stop loss, you could use a color enhancer filter to make the reds pop out more on the negative.
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#7 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 01:11 AM

You can skip bleach on the interpositive but that will greatly increase contrast. There are ways to skip bleach on the interpositive without increasing contrast but there are no ways to isolate red in this process.

Recently, in some countries, prices of 2K digital intermediate have come down so much that they are hardly different from the traditional IP/DN process and this would give you what you want easily.
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#8 bertrand mouly

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 07:30 AM

You can skip bleach on the interpositive but that will greatly increase contrast. There are ways to skip bleach on the interpositive without increasing contrast but there are no ways to isolate red in this process.

Recently, in some countries, prices of 2K digital intermediate have come down so much that they are hardly different from the traditional IP/DN process and this would give you what you want easily.


Yes, you are right ; i must consider an other time the D.I possibility ( which i used on several movies already with a lot of satisfaction) but a kind of come-back to chemical process ( like a straight line over the movie) is quite exciting ...thanks again for your help
and give an Hello to Dirk ( the timer) if he is still at color by deJonghe!
see you
bertrand mouly
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#9 bertrand mouly

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 07:48 AM

Basically what I did on "Northfork" was lower color and contrast by using smoke and diffusion, plus flashing the negative -- and then adding back contrast but also lowering color by doing a skip-bleach to the print.

One thing with desaturation is generally primary colors like red seem to drop away slower than pastel colors, so if you can art direct the scene in grays, pastels, pale blues, but have primary red (or even better, art direct the movie as much in grey as possible, with the red accents) then even after desaturation, the reds should stand out.

If you can live with the two-stop loss, you could use a color enhancer filter to make the reds pop out more on the negative.


First of all thank you Mr.Mullen for your attention and your advices....
I think you are in the direction i will follow ; sadly enough i didn't see your movie " Northfolk" already ( but i will rent it very soon :-) )
The idea to mix; work on color on set and then on film seems right.
Badly an enhancer is completly " forbiden" for me considering the size of the sets and the fact that we are shooting anamorphic ....so we need extra stop ( were to find extra one????)
As i said to Mr. DeJonghe the idea of chemical process is exciting ; because i think it will give to the story ( which is already a strong line) a constant look.
Of course D.I. helps a lot but at the end the result is never the same that chemical way ( specially about colors.) as far as i know....
I appreciate your help and i will give you information about the end choice!
Anyway Your answers helps me to find solutions;
thanks
bertrand
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#10 Christian Appelt

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 05:25 PM

Bertrand,

you may look at Volker Schlöndorff's film DER NEUNTE TAG / THE NINTH DAY where the desaturation was done through optical printing. I think it looks a bit different from desaturation done in D.I., maybe because the double optical printing process results in a different grain structure and contrast build-up. Unfortunately, I could see the film in a bad projection situation only, so I'm not really sure about it.

You may look at some pictures from this movie here (click on DER NEUNTE TAG):

Der neunte Tag / The Ninth Day

DP Tomas Erhart who convinced the director to use that process can be contacted here:

BVK - Tomas Erhart
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#11 bertrand mouly

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:16 AM

[quote name='Christian Appelt' date='May 6 2007, 02:25 PM' post='171593']
Bertrand,

you may look at Volker Schlöndorff's film DER NEUNTE TAG / THE NINTH DAY where the desaturation was done through optical printing. I think it looks a bit different from desaturation done in D.I., maybe because the double optical printing process results in a different grain structure and contrast build-up. Unfortunately, I could see the film in a bad projection situation only, so I'm not really sure about it.


I will look for it ; it's a good information ....still searching
thank you

bertrand
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#12 bertrand mouly

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 11:09 AM

Hello;

In order to add conclusion here; this is what we found;
The lab at the end help us a lot ( ECLAIR)

first we choose kodak 5229 expression ( 5218 looks too contrasty and saturated)

then the lab proposed a " fine grain" or under development on the internegative and process the rest normally: the result is what we were searching for:
soft contrast with reduced dynamic - pale rendition of skin tone and general desaturated colors without grain .and the way it affects the white is very nice .
but we will need also to work on set and we have chosen only dark or soft colors and the make up will be on the "white" side; without lipstick.
that's all ; now we have to shoot the movie....
thanks to everybody

see you
bertrand
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