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i don't rate Star Wars highly anymore


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#1 Chris Graham

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 02:38 AM

imo, it's a blatant rip from Ben-Hur & the Kurosawa classics. i guess most of you know this as nothing new. i guess at least Lucas does admit adapting.

jesus christ! i mean Juda Ben Hur is Luke Skywalker and the general is Darth Vader. "please, let me die" or "leave me." like Luke or Juda, they discover dark secrets. i mean films that progress greatly give off foreshadowing so easily. Without a doubt Ben Hur is culturally biased...with analogies to the Nazis. which again is Star Wars. pretty obvious in clothing that the enemies wear German outfitting whereas the good guys tend to wear traditional Jewish clothing with a mixture of English culture or even more noticeable, Samurai clothing. all mixed. i think even the direction when Juda meets his long time friend is sooooo similar to when Han Solo meets Lando. "old buddies."

shoot, i can think of MANY things that'll have this discussion hitting 20 pages easily.

i don't know anymore. I love the Star Wars series, but Lucas is completely unoriginal! except maybe for Indiana Jones and Howard the Duck! lol
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#2 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 02:45 AM

"Lucas is completely unoriginal! except maybe for Indiana Jones and Howard the Duck! lol"

Umm.....I would think that Howard the Duck was Lucas' most unoriginal work since the character was based on a Marvel Comic series after all!
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#3 Chris Graham

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 02:46 AM

however, i will add that Juda Ben Hur's new gf when hanging out in Rome, that woman is a freaking stunning-gorgeous English chick!
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#4 Will Earl

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:00 AM

The external influences on Star Wars have been well documented.

http://en.wikipedia...._Thousand_Faces
http://en.wikipedia....Hidden_Fortress
http://en.wikipedia....Busters_(movie)

Also see Laurence of Arabia, Seven Samurai and Flash Gordon.
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#5 Chris Graham

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 01:13 PM

i've never even followed up on most documentation. i'm just thinking as a cinematography forum, i guess depending on how you observe frame content & establishment, it's not hard to miss. yeah i have Laurence of Arabia as well. sand is a definite influence to Lucas. like I said and mentioned, Seven Samurai would part of a Kurosawa classic!!!!! wouldn't you think

what i meant by Howard The Duck or Indy is that there were no films before those! c'mon, most films are adaptations from a source, particular a novel

why do you think we're in an age for pure indie dramas? btw, another guy that urks me is Tarantino. no different than Lucas. Kill Bill is a blatant spaghetti western rip stylee from the original Kill starring Tatsuya Nakadai

i think a lot of pictures need to go back to the art of true dolly shooting and strategic camera movement. this whole cgi convenience is just fake. i do like Michael Ballhaus' work, or i guess if directed right
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#6 Richard Boddington

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 01:51 PM

All Lucas and Star Wars detractors will pay for their insolence!!!

R,

PS: I did happen to watch the Damn Busters on TV the other night, Lucas was quite brilliant if in fact he did "borrow" the final scene for Star Wars.

I pay homage to David Lean in my feature by using a transition he used in Lawrence Of Arabia, one of the truly great films of our time. But you'd have to be a Lawrence Of Arabia nut to spot the similarity.
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#7 Jason Maeda

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 02:51 PM

don't forget john ford.

"good poets borrow, great poets steal".

jk :ph34r:
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#8 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 02:58 PM

PS: I did happen to watch the Damn Busters on TV the other night, Lucas was quite brilliant if in fact he did "borrow" the final scene for Star Wars.

I pay homage to David Lean in my feature by using a transition he used in Lawrence Of Arabia, one of the truly great films of our time. But you'd have to be a Lawrence Of Arabia nut to spot the similarity.


Is a match involved?

'Star Wars DP, photographed the 'Dambusting miniatures.
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#9 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:31 PM

During my pre-teens and early teens the original Star Wars films helped me a great deal through a turbulent time.

Not only did they give me a magical place to escape to from an unhappy home and school life but they also made me think about self confidence, and gave me hope that the darker aspects of my current family predicament would not be eternally crushing.

Very few movies can be praised in that way, and I know councilors have been known to advise their patients to watch them for those very benefits.


Unfortunately the prequels have been a taint on their reputation and my memories of them.

But back to the originals, yes they do copy, steal and borrow but all filmmakers do, even relatively early ones. Alfred Hitchcock for example stole from his masters considerably through his career.

However lets stop just contributing the success of the original films just down to Lucas, it was a collaboration, like all filmmaking between some very talented people, John Williams, Irvin Kurshner, Leigh Bracket etc.

In fact it wasn't till one of the latter drafts of the Empire Strikes Back that somebody conceived the great twist: that Darth Vader was Luke's father. So it could have easily have been Lawrence Kasdan, Leigh Bracket or Kurshner who pulled this, the heart of the story into it monumental place.

Personally I remember the line when Yoda says in the ESB as perhaps being my first introduction to great screenwriting:

"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless."


Edited by Andy_Alderslade, 26 May 2007 - 03:34 PM.

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#10 Jason Maeda

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:23 PM

i'm pretty sure lucas had intended for luke to be vader's son the whole time. hence:
aunt em (or whatever) "he's just got too much of his father in him"
uncle ben "thats what i'm afraid of"
etc.

plus wasn't "darth vader" supposed to be a substitute for "dark father"?

i'm a huge fan of samurai films and the star wars series has a lot in common with the genre. especially yoda (which is just a normal japanese name) who is clearly modeled after some of the aging samurai masters and even speaks english with japanese grammatical structure.

as far as i'm concerned, "the empire strikes back" is a masterpiece of the hollywood tradition.

jk :ph34r:
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#11 Werner Klipsch

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 07:27 PM

However lets stop just contributing the success of the original films just down to Lucas, it was a collaboration, like all filmmaking between some very talented people, John Williams, Irvin Kurshner, Leigh Bracket etc.

Let's not forget John Dykstra whose revolutionary computer-control motion control system made all that spectacular outer-space scenery possible. Without him, we would probably not be having this thread.

However I have heard Lucas was not happy with Dykstra's work, as it appeared to distract too much from the excellence of his scripwriting :lol:

Star Wars 4-6 was mostly futuristic eye-candy and nothing more. Not that I didn't enjoy it. As the late Issac Asimov said, it's easy to leave your sophistication at the hat check room and just enjoy the movie for what it is.
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#12 Chris Graham

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 10:03 PM

i will do admit that Lucas transcends epic to newly creative art. however, without a doubt, Hollywood for the longest has been culturally biased to its Jewish background and people who run it. there's a lot of significance within that statement when you think about it. probably another reason why most islamic radicals hate American culture. can't blame them.

oh my god how can I forget Willow!!!!!! there wouldn't be a Lord Of The Rings without Willow! ILM at the time was way ahead of its time. i'd like to see the new prints to Blu-Ray! regarding LOTR, yeah I know it's based on the book, but again we're going back to originality. I think it's time for Ridley Scott to do some magic again like when he did that film with Cruise. i forgot the name
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#13 Richard Boddington

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 11:50 PM

Is a match involved?


What the *bleep* how did you know???????

You could have picked that up from my new trailer but it's not even out yet. That's either an amazing guess, or you know some one on my set.

R,
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#14 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:18 AM

I think it's time for Ridley Scott to do some magic again like when he did that film with Cruise. i forgot the name


"Legend" (1985)
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#15 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:45 AM

Star Wars 4-6 was mostly futuristic eye-candy and nothing more. Not that I didn't enjoy it. As the late Issac Asimov said, it's easy to leave your sophistication at the hat check room and just enjoy the movie for what it is.



You know, you really have to watch the episodes back to back to get the real impact of it. I sorta felt the same way but after seeing thiem in context, the first 2 Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are pretty much just epiilogue, Revenge of the Sith moves the story into a deeper understanding of what Lucas is trying to say about good and evil and if moves smoothly into the original Star Wars episodes. It's really one big movie that when taken as a whole is amazingly powerful. I got the chance to see the entire sequince of episodes in order back to back this weekend, which I had never done before and the culitive effect was remarkable. I really found a much greater appreciation for what Lucas had accomplished and feel I now understand why there are so many devotees of the Star Wars phenominum. He may have blantently ripped off everyone and their brother but NO ONE and NONE of the movies he ripped of INCLUDING a great movie like Ben Hur acchieved what Lucas did. He seemed to find the essence of what myth, legend and sirituality was and presented it in a way that somehow touched people profoundly, so say what you like, THAT is quite a rare thing to do. B)
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#16 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:19 AM

What the *bleep* how did you know???????

You could have picked that up from my new trailer but it's not even out yet. That's either an amazing guess, or you know some one on my set.

R,


:huh:

Isn't that one of the most famous transitions in film history?
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#17 Chris Graham

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:35 AM

Ben-Hur is a very dark film, darker than Star Wars. 11 oscar's in a sitting. i know ben-hur is a remake, any director can die happy with 11 oscars achieved for one film, even if the revenue isn't as big as Lucasfilm! i'm willing to bet his video game market over 15+ has made more than his films. lucky guy nonetheless, and i do love Lucas' work don't get me wrong, it's just pure revelation after watching the classics more and more
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#18 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 06:03 AM

i'm pretty sure lucas had intended for luke to be vader's son the whole time. hence:
aunt em (or whatever) "he's just got too much of his father in him"
uncle ben "thats what i'm afraid of"
etc.

plus wasn't "darth vader" supposed to be a substitute for "dark father"?


No, I discovered a book containing the original drafts in a University Library when I was supposed to be researching my dissertation. The book clearly pointed out when the twist was added in a latter draft of the The Empire Strikes Back.

The Aunt and Uncle are only showed to to be referring to Luke's father leaving the farmer existence and becoming a fighter if you like, there is no direct reference as to him becoming Darth Vader.

Also can we really regard Star Wars as a Hollywood film, today it would probably be referred to as an Indie Film - it was written and directed by someone based in San Fransico, the Crew were British, the Majority of the cast were British, and the special effects were done outside of Hollywood - only the funding was from Hollywood.
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#19 Tim Partridge

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 06:09 AM

Let's not forget John Dykstra whose revolutionary computer-control motion control system made all that spectacular outer-space scenery possible. Without him, we would probably not be having this thread.


Let's also not forget that Trumbull/Yuricich were using a more sophisticated motion control system for CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, made at the same time as STAR WARS. Al Miller and his crew physically made BOTH systems.
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#20 Richard Boddington

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 09:34 PM

"Isn't that one of the most famous transitions in film history?"

Not if you haven't seen it, it isn't :D

Try getting a group of people under 30 to sit through Lawrence Of Arabia.

R,
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