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Red Lenses - Why not T stop


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#1 rory hinds

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 07:14 PM

Anyone know why RED have decided to go with F stops on their Cinema Lenses and not T Stop.

Seems the industry standard is T stop in Cinema Lenses.
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#2 Max Jacoby

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 01:55 AM

Maybe because F2.8 does not sound quite as bad as T3.1.
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:40 AM

Anyone know why RED have decided to go with F stops on their Cinema Lenses and not T Stop.

Seems the industry standard is T stop in Cinema Lenses.


Hi Rory,

Totally bizarre, to make ENG crews or Nikon lens users more comfortable?

Stephen
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#4 Jim Jannard

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:26 AM

Hi Rory,

Totally bizarre, to make ENG crews or Nikon lens users more comfortable?

Stephen


How about cost? If you want T-stops, buy some Cooke or Zeiss glass. Our 5 lens prime set costs less than one Zeiss Master Prime. Our zoom costs 1/6th the price of an Optimo. We are building a very sharp set of digitally corrected lenses with the idea of getting glass into the hands of many. Really not so bizarre...

Stephen... you in charge here?

Jim
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 05:34 AM

How about cost? If you want T-stops, buy some Cooke or Zeiss glass. Our 5 lens prime set costs less than one Zeiss Master Prime. Our zoom costs 1/6th the price of an Optimo. We are building a very sharp set of digitally corrected lenses with the idea of getting glass into the hands of many. Really not so bizarre...

Stephen... you in charge here?

Jim


Hi Jim,

It's great that you are answering the important questions so quickly here. The same question was asked on CML & Reduser without any answer.

FWIW I already own Cooke & Zeiss Glass, I thought I might want to add to my collection of lenses.

Yes, I have closed down a couple of threads that looked like they were going to get nasty.

My best,

Stephen
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#6 Luke Prendergast

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 05:53 AM

T-stops cost more than F-stops, I'll be darned.
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#7 rory hinds

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 05:59 AM

Hi Jim

Thanks for answering the important questions here too :-)

So how much more would marking the lenses with T Stops add to the cost?

Surely its a measuring tool, like Feet or Meters and makes no difference to the quality of the lens.

I don't understand how it would add that much more, creating the quality glass without breathing is the hard part and I think pro users will pay more to have professional marking points on the lenses, don't you think so?

It does seem strange that RED are doing every thing to make the camera top dog and then will cut corners on the lenses.

I'm no lens manufacture but from my understanding a industry standard measuring system can't be that hard to implement.

Why not give people the option to either have F or T stops. I know the T number will not be as low as the F number but it will not change the performance of the lens.

Please educate me.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 12:52 PM

Hi Jim,

I just noticed that the P+S rehoused Zeiss lenses are marked in T stops, they sell for I believe $2200.

http://www.pstechnik...ics_lensset.php

What I find interesting there is the apeture range 'F' stops is the same as the quoted 'T' stop, just like some of the Mk1 SuperSpeeds :lol:

My best,

Stephen
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#9 Jim Jannard

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 01:33 PM

Looking into it...

Jim
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#10 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 01:38 PM

Looking into it...

Jim


Thanks Jim, you might sell more lens sets than cameras!

Stephen
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#11 rory hinds

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 01:59 PM

Brilliant... we are moving forward :-)
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#12 Carl Brighton

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:52 AM

Anyone know why RED have decided to go with F stops on their Cinema Lenses and not T Stop.

Seems the industry standard is T stop in Cinema Lenses.

Well, when you're shooting film you more or less have to take all the light measurements you can, and then rely on your experience to get the exposure right, because you won't be seeing the results for 10-12 hours at the very least. You really need to be able to accurately estimate how much light is falling on the film emulsion, because you can't measure it directly.

With video, at the very least you have a zebra pattern in the viewfinder, and as like as not, a waveform monitor and video screens, so you can set up your exposure on the fly, just basically setting the iris until you get the best compromise between white clipping and shadow detail. Also until recently, most video cameras only had 2/3" or smaller sensors, so you didn't care overmuch about depth of field either, as you don't get a lot of control over that anyway. So basically, with video you don't need to know so much about the numbers on the lens, because you can fiddle with it until it looks right on the monitor.

And so, yes, F stops make the lens sound better than it is, particularly cheap lenses!

What do they use on the Panavision CineAlta lenses? I've never actually taken any notice.
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#13 Carl Brighton

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 07:06 AM

How about cost? If you want T-stops, buy some Cooke or Zeiss glass.
Jim

But what difference does that make? You'd just be putting the marks on a different place on the barrel. The only advantage I can see for F-Stop markings is that you can theoretically do more accurate depth of field calculations, but in practice, I hardly think that's going to make enough difference to matter.

You could always supply a choice of stick-on labels :lol:

Actually, an automated system where you custom-engrave the iris and focus markings on each lens using some sort of automated milling machine would be a big advance.
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#14 Alexander Joyce

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 07:07 AM

What do they use on the Panavision CineAlta lenses? I've never actually taken any notice.


I don't know about the Panavision ones, but I have two identical Canon HJ21 zooms at work now. One is the ENG lens and the other the cine style lens. The ENG lens is marked in F-stops while the cine lens is marked in T-stops.
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#15 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 07:10 AM

Well, when you're shooting film you more or less have to take all the light measurements you can, and then rely on your experience to get the exposure right, because you won't be seeing the results for 10-12 hours at the very least. You really need to be able to accurately estimate how much light is falling on the film emulsion, because you can't measure it directly.

With video, at the very least you have a zebra pattern in the viewfinder, and as like as not, a waveform monitor and video screens, so you can set up your exposure on the fly, just basically setting the iris until you get the best compromise between white clipping and shadow detail. Also until recently, most video cameras only had 2/3" or smaller sensors, so you didn't care overmuch about depth of field either, as you don't get a lot of control over that anyway. So basically, with video you don't need to know so much about the numbers on the lens, because you can fiddle with it until it looks right on the monitor.

And so, yes, F stops make the lens sound better than it is, particularly cheap lenses!

What do they use on the Panavision CineAlta lenses? I've never actually taken any notice.


Hi Carl,

Panavision CineAlta lenses are T stops
Zeiss Digi Primes are T stops
Fuji Primes are T stops, I could go on.

People often shoot with multiple cameras. If all the lenses match then that is a good thing which saves time & money. When you change a lens on a single camera you can just set the stop and shoot.


Stephen
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#16 Jim Jannard

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 01:22 AM

We have been digging into the history of making all RED lenses t-stops instead of f-stops. I have discovered that the quote we got for t-stop calibration initially was just too much for us to sell our lenses at the prices we had targeted. We have done some more work on this and think we can accomplish the calibration for a better price. I'm not sure exactly what that means in terms of selling price at this moment, but we are committed to giving it our best effort.

Jim
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#17 Nick Mulder

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 01:34 AM

Is their some sort of regulation regarding the accuracy/tolerance of both the initial calibration ? (ie whats to stop someone with a light meter and some funky math coming up with their own 'leasurements' ?)

Does each lens in the production line need to be tested against the initial group of ideal - or more likely 'typical' - figures obtained.... or are the witness marks adjusted on the ring for each camera individually ?

That would be neat - and costly yes ...
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#18 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 02:16 AM

Thanks for looking into the possibility of marking them with T-stops, or at least making that an ordering option, even if it entails an extra charge to cover your costs.

I don't want the indie people who counted on buying the lenses for the price you promised them to be disappointed, hence why I hope both parties can be satisfied by the notion of selling them with f-stops at the original price, or with T-stops with an extra charge.
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#19 Jim Jannard

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 02:52 AM

Thanks for looking into the possibility of marking them with T-stops, or at least making that an ordering option, even if it entails an extra charge to cover your costs.

I don't want the indie people who counted on buying the lenses for the price you promised them to be disappointed, hence why I hope both parties can be satisfied by the notion of selling them with f-stops at the original price, or with T-stops with an extra charge.


This looks likes my error. I did not work hard enough to negotiate on this feature. My new goal is to include T-stops at no additional cost to our customer. If we have to take a margin hit... oh, well. I think we can accommodate this on the primes. The jury is still out on the zoom. I'm still working on it.

Please remember that we are working hard for our customer and this is our 1st camera/lens project. We are likely to make a few mistakes along the way. The only thing we can do it try to correct them as quickly as possible. It appears that we still have some time to fix this.

BTW... that's why we are here on the boards.

Jim
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#20 Carl Brighton

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 05:12 AM

Thanks for looking into the possibility of marking them with T-stops, or at least making that an ordering option, even if it entails an extra charge to cover your costs.

I don't want the indie people who counted on buying the lenses for the price you promised them to be disappointed, hence why I hope both parties can be satisfied by the notion of selling them with f-stops at the original price, or with T-stops with an extra charge.

I still don't understand why it would cost so much more to have T-Stops instead of F-Stops. Is it just that you get a better price if they're all one type or the other?

But be reasonable; Jannard is selling HD cameras. I don't think his customers would be too pleased if they were going to stung more for the lenses, just for the convenience of people who want to use them on film cameras! On the other hand, I can see why people with existing collections of film-type lenses would like them to be all the same.

Sounds like a bit of a can of worms!
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