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I know a spring driven bolex can't do sync sound, but


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#1 Jon Boguslaw

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 03:43 PM

could I dub it somewhat believably? I'm just looking for the quality of old italian movies or stuff like that. Doesn't have to be incredible, just watchable.
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:21 PM

could I dub it somewhat believably? I'm just looking for the quality of old italian movies or stuff like that. Doesn't have to be incredible, just watchable.


There are a few threads on this subject, here's one:

http://www.cinematog...p;hl=sync sound


If you run a search with sync sound as the key words you'll find more.
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#3 Sir Alvin Ekarma

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:24 PM

could I dub it somewhat believably? I'm just looking for the quality of old italian movies or stuff like that. Doesn't have to be incredible, just watchable.


Sure. You just need to make sure that you have an exact record of what was said (or make sure the actors stick to the script relegiously) and make sure your actors not only clearly enunciate every syllable, but also slow down their speech patterns a touch.
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#4 Jon Boguslaw

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:30 PM

Yeah, I have no desire to use sync-sound. I'd rather be able to move the camera around and such without having to worry about whether it can be heard or if sound equipment is in the way.

If I were to shoot film, record what was said with a cassette recorder to remember exactly what was said, could I then have the film telecine'd and have the actors re-record the sound/add natural noise and such, it would be decent, right?

Also, once I have that, what is the procedure for getting a print. If I have the markers and such for where the edits would be, how much do negative cutters typically charge? Is it based on the amount of edits, or the total footage? And what is the procedure for adding the sound stripe?

I'm sorry, I did numerous searches, but most of them concern sync-sound which I'm not concerned with. I'm just thinking about making a short and couldn't find much info on how the end result (negative cutters and such) is made.

Edited by Jon Boguslaw, 28 May 2007 - 06:34 PM.

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#5 Jon Boguslaw

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:45 PM

Oh, when I say I don't want sync sound I just mean I don't want a crystal sync motor to record on-set sound.
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#6 Sir Alvin Ekarma

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 09:03 PM

If I were to shoot film, record what was said with a cassette recorder to remember exactly what was said, could I then have the film telecine'd and have the actors re-record the sound/add natural noise and such, it would be decent, right?


At best it's going to look like a 60s/70s euro film, and at worst a chop sockey.

Also, once I have that, what is the procedure for getting a print.


You should check w/ whatever lab you'll be using, but generally you have the keycode transferred in the telecine and use Final Cut or Avid to knock out an EDL from the key codes in the offline edit, and then the negative cutter will take it from there. I've grossly oversimplified things (and left out sound in the workflow) but the lab should be more than happy to discuss things in detail. (and don't forget another forum search)
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#7 Kirk Anderson

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 11:18 PM

I've done this quite a few times with a bolex and a arri S, but i just did a piece on super 8mm the same way. You can research back logs and see I've made many posts on the subject with the tag, "faux sync sound". Here's a clip from a current project shot on a canon 814 and sound recorded on a marantz pmd201 tape deck. It's pretty believeble but definately not perfect.
kirk


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#8 Clive Tobin

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 01:48 PM

...Doesn't have to be incredible, just watchable...

Actually, there was a way for a Bolex to do sync sound. Magnasync used to make the Nomad audio recorder, which was mechanically driven by a speedometer cable from the 8:1 shaft on the Bolex, and mounted underneath it.

It recorded on 100 feet of split-16 thin-base fullcoat (8mm wide with 16mm perforations on an 8mm 3" return reel) and was of course mechanically interlocked with the Bolex. You just needed a single clapstick hit at the start of the roll as the film and tape would naturally stay in sync till the end of the roll. I think most users bought the motor drive accessory and copied the narrow thin mag to regular 16mm fullcoat for editing.

Unfortunately, as you will no doubt discover, the speed governor in a clockwork camera is not perfectly stable through the run, and in particular the speed drops at the end. So towards the end of a spring wind, the reproduced speech would speed up Mickey Mouse style.

(Just one more tidbit from my half-vast useless store of information!)
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#9 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:28 PM

Years ago I did a similar post sync in super 8. It worked very well. The location sound was recorded on the mag stripe of the film. That was projected through a glass door in the hallway (to isolate the projector sound) and the actors listened on headphones to the scratch track and re-spoke their lines. It seems to me you could do this much more easily now with a computer. I think you'll find it isn't very difficult to do.
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#10 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:31 PM

By the way Clive, your information on the Nomad may not be terribly useful, but your tidbits of the obscure are always fascinating!
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#11 Sir Alvin Ekarma

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 08:30 PM

It seems to me you could do this much more easily now with a computer. I think you'll find it isn't very difficult to do.


Computers will give you wiggle room, but it still comes down to timing; some people can ADR off the bat, others can't do it to save their lives.
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#12 Will Montgomery

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:53 PM

I've done it in 16mm and Super 8. Here's my down & dirty unprofessional method:

I use a pocket digital camera to record in "movie" mode to record the audio during a take for reference. This gives me both audio and video. Then after telecine manually sync it back up in Final Cut Pro. Then have the dialog re-recorded. If you know your way around audio editing you can usually make it work, but its also up to the actors to do a good job. This works best on very short takes.

Also, you need to really listen the room and try to approach a similar sound in post by adding tiny (REALLY tiny) amounts of reverb or whatever is needed. Miking technique can also be a factor, close or farther away from the person.

Sometimes you can fudge it a little with a soundtrack underneath to make the new dialog recording less fake.
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#13 Marty Hamrick

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 12:03 PM

Don't laugh but stashed somewhere in my closet,in my collection of old trade magazines,I have an old Filmmaker's Newsletter that has an article on a sync pulse generator that was designed to work on a spring wound Bolex.
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