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Fuji Vivid 160


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#1 Matthew Buick

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 04:38 PM

Hello all.

I'm going on a week long trip to Paris this August, and have decided to make a documentary of my travels. I think Fuji Vivid 160 would be perfect for the colour palette I'd like. Pro8mm offer this stock, I believe. Would you say they are a reliable source? I've heard stories about them using unrefridgerated short ends.

Best Regards - Matthew Buick :)
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:00 PM

Considering how new this stock is, even short ends are not bound to be very old.
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#3 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:55 PM

Wow, it is already available at Pro8 in S8. I'm kind of curious and excited about this stock, I hear it has a cool saturated look and I wonder how the grain is. I've been hoping that Kodak or Fuji would come out with some kind of specialty stock that offers something more in the way of unique film aesthetics... as opposed to the "performance" game of wide latatude, fine grain natural looking stocks. You gotta have something that can look wild out of the gate, without having to do all kinds of special processing and what not. E100D has been the only thing left of center for a while now.
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#4 Matthew Buick

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 03:09 PM

Yes. There are going to have to be more stocks like this if film's going to have a chance in the future. I saw some test photos on Fuji's website, and they really are something special. :)
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#5 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:47 PM

I saw some test photos on Fuji's website, and they really are something special. :)


I hardly think a still posted on Fuji's website is enough to judge whether a stock is special or not. I'm waiting for a projected image before the verdict is in.
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#6 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 02:21 PM

Fuji doesn't seem to carry 100ft daylight spools in 16mm. Id love to shoot a roll and get a print. Its a pretty cheap way to try out a stock, but with them it's only 400ft cores it seems.
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#7 Terry Mester

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:37 PM

Mattie, don't forget about Pro8mm's ripoff postage. Also, are they insisting that you pay for developing with Pro8mm, or can you have the film developed at a local Lab.

Is there anyone living in Los Angeles who can do Matthew the favour of picking up his Cartridges at Pro8mm's Office, and then mailing it to him via the US Postal Service. The USPS only charges $16.80 (plus any CA Sales Tax) to mail a package to Great Britain, but Pro8mm will extort about $60 or $70 Dollars for their postage. Matthew can pay you in advance, and you can pop in to Pro8mm whenever you're driving nearby.

I would suggest that S8 users in Britain get together to intermittently buy bulk Film orders from Pro8mm -- to be shipped to just one person. You can then use Royal Mail to mail it out to each of you individually.
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#8 Matthew Buick

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:54 PM

WHOA!!! I really don't want to put anyone to any trouble. Plus, I won't be buying the film for a while. I don't even know if I can afford it.

Thanks anyways, Terry. It's nice to find someone so caring these days. :)

With regards to pro8mm. I9'd be much more prone to driving one of those big ol' American tanks through the front door.
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#9 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:48 PM

Mattie, don't forget about Pro8mm's ripoff postage. Also, are they insisting that you pay for developing with Pro8mm, or can you have the film developed at a local Lab.


Just to clear this up. ALL LABS that load their own super-8 film into super-8 cartridges CHARGE for processing at time the super-8 film stock is purchased. They have no choice, loading film into a Super-8 cartridge is the most tedious, time consuming, thankless aspect of the whole Super-8 industry, and it's actually not profitable at all. What does make it profitable is also charging for processing at the time of sale, oh wait, that is actually not profitable either. What makes loading the film and then processing the film profitable is customer loyalty, meaning after buying and processing, you pay that facility to also transfer the footage.

When you pay for specially loaded Super-8 film and processing but don't transfer with that lab, your purchase is being subsidized by the customers who also pay for transfer services from that same lab. If Pro-8mm uses recans and short ends and is getting their film at a very low cost, they may be the only place that actually squeezes out a profit from the sale of their cartridges and processing only.

Frankly I consider it quite generous that the labs don't also demand you transfer your film with them. Of course that would piss off a lot of people so they don't do it, but if they had their druthers, that's what they'd druther do.

Thankfully, Kodak has a special automated procedure for loading their Super-8 cartridges, the mom and pop stores do not.
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#10 Gerard Furber

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:05 AM

Wittner Cinetec offer a few of the Pro8mm Fuji stocks and their postage to the UK is reasonable compared to the Pro8mm rate from the US.

It might be worth waiting for Wittner to stock it if you aren't going any time soon.
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#11 Oron Cohen

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:49 AM

Fuji doesn't seem to carry 100ft daylight spools in 16mm. Id love to shoot a roll and get a print. Its a pretty cheap way to try out a stock, but with them it's only 400ft cores it seems.

Actually from what I know you can get Fuji in 100ft spools in 16mm, but I am not sure about the vivid 160T availability.
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#12 ryan_bennett

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 01:01 PM

Fuji doesn't seem to carry 100ft daylight spools in 16mm. Id love to shoot a roll and get a print. Its a pretty cheap way to try out a stock, but with them it's only 400ft cores it seems.


Ya they do, I shot a music video on fuji's 250D daylight spools, and have shot on 250T and few other stocks so I would definitely bet that they have 160 on daylight spools, single or double perf too, if you just called up and asked. Plus it is listed on their pricing site: FujiFilm

I would love to shoot some scenes on my next short on 160 but I'm leaving that up to my DP.
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#13 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 03:30 PM

Wow, thanks for that. I have never been able to find that info.
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#14 Terry Mester

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 12:44 AM

Just to clear this up. ALL LABS that load their own super-8 film into super-8 cartridges CHARGE for processing at time the super-8 film stock is purchased.


Well, then it's unfortunately not worth it for people outside the U.S. to buy small numbers of Carts from Pro8mm or Spectra. Shipments coming into a country have to go through Customs. In Canada, I have to pay 14% Tax on foreign Shipments plus another $5 charged by the Post Office! I would have to pay this a second time when getting the Cart back after developing, and I would have to pay about $10 to mail the Cart to Pro or Spectra for developing! That's a lot more expensive than dropping it off at WalMart or a local Film Lab for free.

They have no choice, loading film into a Super-8 cartridge is the most tedious, time consuming, thankless aspect of the whole Super-8 industry, and it's actually not profitable at all. What does make it profitable is also charging for processing at the time of sale, oh wait, that is actually not profitable either. What makes loading the film and then processing the film profitable is customer loyalty, meaning after buying and processing, you pay that facility to also transfer the footage.
Thankfully, Kodak has a special automated procedure for loading their Super-8 cartridges, the mom and pop stores do not.


Having taken apart the Cart, I cannot comprehend how Kodak could automate the loading of the Cartridge. It has to be done by a person. It's actually not as hard as you think to load those S8 Cartridges in the dark, but it requires a person. Kodak would have machines to cut the huge Film Sheets into 8mm Strips -- they don't start with 35mm Strips. Their machines could then perforate them and roll the Strips up into a coil -- all in sequence. For Pro8mm & Spectra, they would have to start by cutting a 35mm or 16mm Stock up into the 8mm size, and this would be a bigger work effort for Pro / Spectra. Their process of perforating and winding up the Film into a coil is not likely automated like Kodak. This would be the most trouble. When you already know what's inside the Cart, it's not hard to place the Film coil in the inner mould, and insert that in the Cart container. It's then easy to connect it up to the Take-up Spool. Even for Spectra who buys new film from Kodak, $20 per Cart should provide them at least 10% profit.

When you pay for specially loaded Super-8 film and processing but don't transfer with that lab, your purchase is being subsidized by the customers who also pay for transfer services from that same lab. If Pro-8mm uses recans and short ends and is getting their film at a very low cost, they may be the only place that actually squeezes out a profit from the sale of their cartridges and processing only.


I agree that they should not subsidize the production of the Cartridge with costs from developing or telecine. Each service should charge a fee aimed at reasonable profit. If a company can make a 10% profit on a product or service, they're doing pretty good. You can be confident that Pro8mm and Spectra are making 10% profit on their S8 Cart sales, or they wouldn't be selling Carts. The problem in Hollywood (including Pro8mm) is that they don't view 10% as a good profit. I'll bet Kodak would be happy with 10%. Pro & Spectra are cutting their own throats because they would sell a lot more Cartridges if they didn't demand developing fees in the price. I will not buy Velvia or E100D Carts if I have to pay for developing with Spectra. Pro8mm is further exploiting its customers through postage charges -- they wanted an appalling $67 from Jon Lawrence! How do Pro8mm postal fees compare to Spectra? This would be a good barometer in assessing the honesty of these two businesses.
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#15 jon lawrence

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 04:43 AM

Matthew, regarding what Terry said earlier- I would be happy to split the postage costs on an order from pro8mm. Obviously one of us would have to put a of of trust in the other but I don't think that would be an issue.
Also, I'm going to the states for a few weeks in July/August and I was going to buy a few rolls and post them back home so I can get some for you and post it to you when I'm back.

-Jon
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#16 Matthew Buick

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 06:57 PM

Sounds great. I'll have to ask my mother before I go making transactions people I've never met.
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#17 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 12:36 AM

I called Fuli today to order a couple rolls of Vivid 160T in 16mm. $32.50 per roll, a little cheaper than Kodak... all was going fine untill they asked me to fax or email a photo copy or scan of my credit card and drivers liscense. To me this sounded like a big unorthodox pain in the ass, so I told them to forget it. If it isn't bad enough that you can't order film stock online from Kodak or Fuji, like you can purchase anything else on the planet online. But at least when I call in my order to Kodak, I just give my info and credit card # and I have film the next day. What kind of crack pot operation are they running over there at Fuji?
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#18 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 01:39 AM

If a company can make a 10% profit on a product or service, they're doing pretty good. You can be confident that Pro8mm and Spectra are making 10% profit on their S8 Cart sales, or they wouldn't be selling Carts. The problem in Hollywood (including Pro8mm) is that they don't view 10% as a good profit. I'll bet Kodak would be happy with 10%. Pro & Spectra are cutting their own throats because they would sell a lot more Cartridges if they didn't demand developing fees in the price. I will not buy Velvia or E100D Carts if I have to pay for developing with Spectra. Pro8mm is further exploiting its customers through postage charges -- they wanted an appalling $67 from Jon Lawrence! How do Pro8mm postal fees compare to Spectra? This would be a good barometer in assessing the honesty of these two businesses.


I guess it depends on how you define "profit". If you are talking 10% profit after every cost associated with making and selling a film cartridge is added in, and there are probably 10-20 such separate but related costs, then sure 10% is probably fine since it's above and beyond all other costs. But to reach that 10% profit after all costs have been added, the actual percentage of profit probably needs to be between 33% to 66%, and keep in mind, since they are making a product from separate parts, they also need to be able to mark up each and every item that goes into the making and creation of the film cartridge. Actually, start adding all the costs and the product, since it's being made from scratch, probably requires an actual 100% mark up from what the perceived costs are.
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#19 Gerard Furber

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 05:05 PM

I too am in the UK and would like to try a roll of this, so am willing to contribute the cost of one roll plus share of the shipping to a bulk buy to save on the extortionate costs. $30 US is about £15 which is only a pound or two over what you'd pay for a Kodak cart over the counter in a specialist shop without processing, so even when paying for processing again at a local European lab, it's still not bad as long as we can get that postage cost down.

Has anyone asked them if they would consider just sending by USPS for $20 as Spectra offer to do?
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#20 Gerard Furber

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 05:19 PM

I've just checked their website by going through the motions of placing an order. When it comes to the shipping options, it states that the cost may include handling charges levied by Pro8 and therefore may not be USPS advertised rates!

There's the answer! They're charging you $40 for handling the order as well as making a profit on the film, processing etc! Unbelievable! Someone ought to send them an e-mail pointing out the fact that such high processing is probably detrimental to their business because they must be losing many sales due to this. That said, if people are paying it then maybe their action is good business sense- just I won't be one of their customers!
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