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cross processing old reversal stock


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#1 Richardson Leao

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:20 PM

Hi there, I have a bit of ukranian color reversal film that I successfully processed using c41 35C (it melts @38), as I would like to have them processed in 120m loads, I wonder if I could just send it to the lab to be processed as ECN2. But I am afraid that it would not survive the machine. Any thoughts, suggestions etc? For example, what would be the working temperature of the ecn chem? Many thanks.

Richardson
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#2 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:10 PM

Hi there, I have a bit of ukranian color reversal film that I successfully processed using c41 35C (it melts @38), as I would like to have them processed in 120m loads, I wonder if I could just send it to the lab to be processed as ECN2. But I am afraid that it would not survive the machine. Any thoughts, suggestions etc? For example, what would be the working temperature of the ecn chem? Many thanks.

Richardson



ECN-2 Developer is 106F or 41C so if it melts at 38C you may be out of luck.

-Rob-
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#3 K Borowski

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:08 PM

As someone that processes C-41 at 40 Centigrade (104F) on a regular basis, I can tell you it does NOT melt at a temperature 2C cooler. . .

Do some tests, but you'll be fine at 106F.


Regards,

~Karl Borowski
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#4 Clive Tobin

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:00 PM

...Do some tests, but you'll be fine at 106F....

Um... he said OLD reversal stock. It is probably not forehardened for high temperature processing if made for a process like ME-4, unlike current negative, so will transform in hot fluids with vigorous agitation to dilute Jello.
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#5 Richardson Leao

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:09 PM

Um... he said OLD reversal stock. It is probably not forehardened for high temperature processing if made for a process like ME-4, unlike current negative, so will transform in hot fluids with vigorous agitation to dilute Jello.


I thought so too, it's actually not ME-4 (as it does not require prehardening), it uses a soviet technology that is similar to e6 but at lower temperature, I think i'll shoot 15m or so and ask a lab to try. Does anyone know if you ask a lab to cross process reversal stock, do they skip the rem-jet removal? Many thanks!
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#6 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 02:38 AM

I thought so too, it's actually not ME-4 (as it does not require prehardening), it uses a soviet technology that is similar to e6 but at lower temperature, I think i'll shoot 15m or so and ask a lab to try. Does anyone know if you ask a lab to cross process reversal stock, do they skip the rem-jet removal? Many thanks!


If there is any question at all that a film has proper forehardening technology to survive a modern high temperature process, NEVER just send it to a lab for processing. The physical integrity of gelatin emulsion can also be adversely affected by age. And even if a film "survives" going though the machine without the emulsion falling off, you could have issues of reticulation.

ALWAYS let your lab know exactly what they are processing.
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#7 Dominic Case

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 07:28 AM

Labs do not skip the backing removal when they cross-process. If you ask for ECN2 process, it follows that you will get ECN2 process - and that includes a backing removal stage.

Commercial labs process tens of thousands feet of film every day. It nearly all goes through a standard process. You should understand that changing the configuration of a machine to a non-standard process takes time which would otherwise be used for normal paying work - that's why you have to pay a surcharge for non-standard runs.

Also, if you ask for cross-processing, anything more than a small amount of the "wrong" stock type will upset the chemical equilibrium of the process. You won't know what effect it has on your work, as it's non-standard anyway: but the next roll of normal negative that goes through will be affected, as the bath will be out of balance. That's someone else's work. Not yours. That is why labs only do small runs, and do them separately.

Finally, if you send in an unknown or unfamiliar stock type that may or may not "melt" in the process, don't expect the lab to process it. It's not smart to risk contaminating the machine or other customers' work with fragments of emulsion, or off-standard results. Apart from damaging other people's work, it would take a day or more to clean up the machine. And replace all the chemicals. Youwant to pay for that? Neither does the lab!

By all means try these tests yourself in a tank. If you are lucky, well done. Don't expect a lab to work that way though.
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#8 Richardson Leao

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 12:07 AM

Off course I understand that the lab has to AGREE on processing the film...

I didn't think about sending a blackbox with unknown stock for processing without letting the lab knowing it...

Btw Dominic, the quatation I asked you was for kodak 7217, not for any unknown russian stock.
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#9 K Borowski

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 05:07 PM

I was under the impression that it was modern reversal film, either E-6 or VNF-1 equivalent. Eithewr of those willl turn out fine. The question was then posed that asks about the feasibility of doing a C-41 cross, which led me to believe (and I still think this is the case) that this is some sort of home hobbyist activity rather than a project that is going to be done by a lab.

Yes, any older process like ME-4, E-4, C-22, ECN (-I), ECP (-I), or ECO should NOT be subjected to the higher temperatures, unless they are somehow chemically prehardened. I have never done this procedure, so I am not sure if it would even be feasible in these circumstances.

Why do people use such old film and then cross process it on top of all the other zany fog and flaking effects they are going to get? It's what you put ON the film, not what film and how it is processed that matters the most.

~KB
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#10 Dominic Case

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 05:27 PM

It's what you put ON the film, not what film and how it is processed that matters the most.

I guess if you are a filmmaker because you are a storyteller, then that is true.

But if you are interested in exploring different looks (which you might use subsequently to tell a particular story, or you might not), then it is the process that is more important to you. And that can include all manner of weird and obscure techniques. It's a justifiable position.

It's like pure research. It doesn't have to be applied to finding a cure for the common cold or creating a faster telecommunications network, to be justified. It can simply be a means of extending our understanding of the world.

But whether you are writing the world's next best-selling novel, or merely doodling, you still have to pay for the pen - and you still want to avoid breaking it.
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