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#1 Daniel Gourley

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 01:47 AM

I am really interested in people...I guess it is why I love film production. And while I enjoy all the knowledge I have gleaned here on cinematography.com about production, one thing I have not enjoyed is the behavior of some "professionals" here in the RED forum.

I have a RED on order. Since the beginning I have been vested at #249. Does that make me a fool or an idiot in some peoples eyes?

I respect people like David Mullen who act like "Professionals". He is always helpful and I have learned much from his posts.

I am an aspiring filmmaker who works his day job as a DP for Televison Advertising and Production. Am I not in the club because of my skillset and background?

You believe that people at forums like DVXUSER and REDUSER "drink the kool-aid" as one "professional" here put it because we "can't take criticism" or are "YES-MEN"... Those posters are more helpful and accepting than some people whose sad existance is to troll this RED subforum when they have 0 interest in purchasing or using a RED camera.

In the book "Who Says Elephants Can't Dance", Luis Gerstner describes a hurting giant of a company called IBM that was devistated after the PC revolution. The people who worked there were brilliant and skilled beyond compare. There was no shortage of talent. But what he discovered, taught them and ultimately saved IBM was the concept of reinvention to meet the needs of the present.

Times change and everyone has an opportunity for reinvention. People like David Mullen who are realistic and open-minded will navigate the change gracefully and with character. People like Jim Jannard will push the envelope, ruffle feathers and succeed where others dreamed and failed. People like this man will have choices to make:

Quote: Carl Brighton
Look if you like, I can give you my bank account details and you can pay me a couple of dollars a week so I'll then be technically an employee, if that will make you feel more comfortable. (Not too much though; I think there's some "peppercorn" threshold where I don't have to declare the income for tax purposes. I'll ask my accountant) ENDQUOTE

I hope some people exchange some attitude and trolling to help people like me learn great aspects of the craft that so many like myself want to learn with the tools of our choice.

Edited by Daniel Gourley, 10 June 2007 - 01:49 AM.

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#2 Carl Brighton

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 06:05 AM

"I have a RED on order. Since the beginning I have been vested at #249. Does that make me a fool or an idiot in some peoples eyes?"
Can you point out the posts where I've said everybody who had placed a deposit on a RED is an idiot? I can't seem to find them.

And don't quote people out of context, it just make other people wonder how much of any posting you actually read.

Since I have time on my hands, you're so interested in people, I have my laptop with me, and there is free wireless internet in this lounge, I shall attempt to answer your lengthly and generally incomprehensible post with an even longer, and hopefully more meaningful one! It would appear that you are really only "interested in people" who tell you what you want to hear; sadly I very much fear I will not be one of them.

I don't know what your problem is, but as the old sayings go:
"Any fool can ask a question a wise man can't answer." and
"Just about any fool can be taught to act like a gentleman, but he'll still be an fool," and
"Don't attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig".

And no, I'm not calling you a fool, or a pig...

I think the RED is an amazing piece of technology and its development is set to change visual entertainment industries beyond recognition. There is no question that it works, and it's only a matter of time before Jannard gets it into full production. How much time and how much it will cost him remain to be seen, but since the RED appears to be made mostly out of industry standard computer parts there's every reason to be optimistic that his schedule won't slip too much.

Unfortunately, putting down a deposit on a RED does NOT automatically make you into an amazing person...

What it will NOT do is change the careers and fortunes of a good percentage of the deposit holders, at least in the way they seem to imagine. Simply reading a lot of the drivel that is posted on REDUSER.net (and elsewhere) tells me (and anybody else who has actually been within two miles of a film set) that a good percentage of the posters/posers there have only the vaguest idea of how a professional movie, TV show or commercial actually gets made.

As I said on my very first posting here, I am after information on the RED. REAL information, not the pie-in-the-sky guesswork of some amateur dreamer.

The name of that forum says it all actually: "Reduser.net". What bloody "Red users"? Apart from Jannard, a few of his employees, Peter Jackson and his assistants, who the hell has "used" a RED? Yet if you blundered into that forum by accident and didn't know any better, you'd swear that half the movies in Hollywood were made using it! We keep reading this "Film is Dead!" rubbish; even Jannard has publicly stated on this forum that the RED does not, and was never designed to, replace 35mm film! There are already plenty of HD video cameras that have been used to make Hollywood blockbusters, yet most people still use film.

Personally I don't think Jannard has done himself much good allowing this "American Idol" Fanboy culture to proliferate. There is a very real danger that up-and-coming but perfectly competent production companies who own REDs, will be discriminated against, because of the sheer number of cowboy outfits that will also spring up, purely on the basis that someone has managed to scare up enough credit to buy a basic RED system.

I rather think it will be something like the situation confronting aspiring rock musicians in the 1970s and 80s. About that time, Ibanez and other Japanese companies were producing extremely good copies of American made Gibson and Fender guitars. My first real job was in a recording studio, and I can assure you that on tape or disc, nobody could pick the difference between the original and a Jap copy. They looked almost identical, they sounded the same and the manufacturing quality was easily as good.

But nobody would take you seriously as a musician unless you had one of the much more expensive original American makes. This almost entirely to weed out time-wasters who'd been given a Les Paul copy last christmas and thought they were musicians. If you've ever watched the DVDs of the initial try-outs for American Idol (or its equivalents) you'll get some appreciation of the way totally talentless people can be utterly convinced they have someting to offer!

And I rather think a similar problem is going to arise with production companies. Unless they can advertise that they've made programs/ads on film or other more expensive acquisition formats, nobody is going to take them seriously, at least not in the initial stages. And saying "Well guess what? That ad was shot with a RED!" isn't going to be particularly helpful either. Every professional can tell you stories of successful commercials that were shot for virtually zero budget in the Account Executive's kitchen or backyard, using supposedly non-broadcast video equipment, which they managed to get transferred to a "proper" broadcast format and nobody noticed. (In the early 1980s quite a few TV spots were done on low-band U-matic videotape, secretly transferred to 1" tape in the wee hours of the morning. I know; I did some of them, and some of them aired for years!:-)

You only have to look at the situation with film festivals. Anything shot on film is automatically going to get a closer scrutiny by the selection committee, simply because it suggests you are more serious about your project, (and probably also becasue the expense of film will make you more careful with your shooting).

Sorry, it's been a nice rant, but I have to cut this short ;)
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#3 Daniel Gourley

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 08:25 AM

So what have I said that has pointed to any of the arguments or rather "hot buttons" that you like to push? You do not realize, but the tone of your posts are very didactic and disrespectful to who you are addressing.

Tell me how exactly did you come into this position as judge over all who would like to create a film?-- or better yet--What experience do you have in creating an invention that rivals the pre-existing conventions of the last 100 years that allows you to treat Jim Jannard as your piss boy?

All I was addressing was attitudes that are displayed here almost as a badge of honor to be rude towards anyone who is trying to create and to learn something new. The way your "quest for knowledge" comes about is more like a spanish inquisition than truth seeking.

Its sad really because I do not doubt you are a professional. But I have not come to this conclusion because of the respect you show others, excellence in skill set or your helpfulness you have shown me, but rather through the contempt you seemingly have for anything that rivals you favorite acquisition tool.

Edited by Daniel Gourley, 10 June 2007 - 08:25 AM.

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#4 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 04:58 PM

...but rather through the contempt you seemingly have for anything that rivals you favorite acquisition tool.

If you take a breather and re-read his post, you'll see quite clearly that his contempt is not for the new technology itself.

I think the RED is an amazing piece of technology and its development is set to change visual entertainment industries beyond recognition. There is no question that it works, and it's only a matter of time before Jannard gets it into full production. How much time and how much it will cost him remain to be seen, but since the RED appears to be made mostly out of industry standard computer parts there's every reason to be optimistic that his schedule won't slip too much.


If you're serious about this statement:

...help people like me learn great aspects of the craft that so many like myself want to learn with the tools of our choice.

Then you might be best served if inflammatory/provocative statements were left alone, until the camera is out, and arguments about it can be based on its proven merits, or about its demonstrated flaws.
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#5 Carl Brighton

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 09:34 PM

Its sad really because I do not doubt you are a professional. But I have not come to this conclusion because of the respect you show others, excellence in skill set or your helpfulness you have shown me, but rather through the contempt you seemingly have for anything that rivals you favorite acquisition tool.



Well, not to put too fine a point on it, if you really think that everybody who is anybody in the film and Video production industries got there by being nice to amateurs, incompetents and other time-wasters, well you've got a big surprise coming! A working set is like a kitchen in a high-priced restaurant, tempers will often flare in the heat of the moment, but seasoned operators know that it doesn't really mean anything. The fact that you're hired at all is a sufficient indication of your true worth!


"my favorite acquisition tool"
And what exactly do you think that might be?

How many times does this have to be repeated: The actual mechanism used to capture the images in most cases represents only a small fraction of the time, money and other resources used in a project. OK you might think you know your way around a video or film camera, that in itself is nowhere near enough to get you hired.

The only "contempt" I have is for the seemingly endless stream of amateurs who seem utterly convinced that their youthful enthusiasm and a RED bought on credit, is going to be an unbeatable substitute for decades of experience. You really think I'm so old and senile that I won't be able to figure out how to operate a RED? And probably faster than you will? Here's a hint: I'm the same age as Jannard :lol:

I started out on video, and eventually moved up to film. My particular door-of-opportunity opened when the owner of a certain production company mentioned how sick he was getting of all the wet-behind-the-ears assistants who completely screwed up the video tap on film productions. I was in a bit of a quiet period and so I took on a stint as video tap operator, and they'd never seen anything like it. Everything was all cabled up neatly, everything worked, they had nice tapes to show the client and everything. Plus I have a van full of all sorts of bits and pieces which are just as much at home on a film set as a video one.
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#6 Ken Cangi

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 11:19 PM

Carl,

Does constantly disparaging and belittling new film-industry workers and fresh filmmakers inflate your self-image and self-perceived status in the industry? I made a promise to myself that I would try to avoid negative dialog with certain members of this forum, and, until now, I have honored that promise. Unfortunately, I have listened to as much of your self-aggrandizing and condescending commentary as I can take.

Whether or not you are actually even minutely as connected and established as you incessantly claim to be is of no importance to me and probably most members of this site. Your presentation is far from impressive. In fact, your continual attacks on people like Jannard are making you look like a complete fool. Even if his Red project tanked tomorrow, his past successes are quantum leaps above anything that you could probably offer as your contribution to this industry and society in general. Where are the examples of your master works? Maybe you should list your resume and a demo reel so that we can publicly scrutinize it. What do you say, champ?

Edited by Ken Cangi, 10 June 2007 - 11:23 PM.

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#7 Daniel Gourley

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 01:08 AM

If you're serious about this statement: Then you might be best served if inflammatory/provocative statements were left alone, until the camera is out, and arguments about it can be based on its proven merits, or about its demonstrated flaws.

I am in complete agreement with you. We should not have statements like Carl's uttered until footage can be seen and scrutinized. This should be an information gathering forum where people can dialogue without fear of attack. However, as I have said before, I have observed the behavior you seem to turn a blind eye to happen on this subforum for a while now by its "established" members.

Practice what you preach.
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#8 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 03:29 AM

Daniel,

It was you that started this thread, and who quoted one of Carl's posts. You can hardly expect him not to respond. You may merely have been passing comment, but from outside perspective it looked a lot like you were trying to start an argument
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#9 Mark Williams

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 03:42 AM

There is a hidden agenda here which is to re-arrange the ranking of Cameras to install the red as top This is pathetic and ends up with everyone exposed for their true motivations either a swipe at someone for past arguments or an intention that thy will be done..

Grow up.
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#10 Ken Cangi

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 12:47 PM

There is a hidden agenda here which is to re-arrange the ranking of Cameras to install the red as top

Not that this hasn't been the case in a few other threads, although I don't see that here. This isn't about the pros and cons of the Red project. That horse has been beaten into submission. This is about a so-called, established professional continually belittling film workers (members), whose experience apparently don't measure up to his standard. He comes across as a pompous ass.

Carl,

Didactic and condescending is exactly how you come across. Your approach makes you appear like a guy who uses your alleged position in the industry to look down your nose at others. People like that always fail to see that society isn't impressed with elitists. If you really want to add something productive to these forums, then try coming down from your pedestal and approach the others here - especially the novice filmmakers - as peers. David Mullen, from all outward appearances has more status in the industry, and he has somehow managed to remain humble and accommodating to the other members of this site, regardless of their experience or lack thereof.
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#11 Daniel Gourley

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 01:22 PM

Not that this hasn't been the case in a few other threads, although I don't see that here. This isn't about the pros and cons of the Red project. That horse has been beaten into submission. This is about a so-called, established professional continually belittling film workers (members), whose experience apparently don't measure up to his standard. He comes across as a pompous ass.

Carl,

Didactic and condescending is exactly how you come across. Your approach makes you appear like a guy who uses your alleged position in the industry to look down your nose at others. People like that always fail to see that society isn't impressed with elitists. If you really want to add something productive to these forums, then try coming down from your pedestal and approach the others here - especially the novice filmmakers - as peers. David Mullen, from all outward appearances has more status in the industry, and he has somehow managed to remain humble and accommodating to the other members of this site, regardless of their experience or lack thereof.


Could not agree more. Yes I did start this thread to address a misfortune on the part of some here. Personally, I could care less if you like the RED. I do however care if you disrespect the person who is attempting the impossible and I also care about the disrespect for those who are here to learn.

You are the veterans, the forerunners. What comes with that title is a lot of responsibility. Sure in the real world you can encounter some real jerks that you have to work with. But it is kind of sick and destructive that you ascribe that to yourself in a proud fashion and use it to justify your own actions. We are all responsible for ourselves. Excuses don't mean anything in the long run and that in my opinion as to what a true "Professional" outlook on life should be.
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