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Camera advice for fiance - NRP, ACL II, SR?


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#1 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:07 AM

Here's a little backstory before we get to the heart of the question. I met my fiance in film school, she studied cinematography and I was focusing on producing. Graduated, moved from San Francisco down to Los Angeles. I got a job at a production company (staying somewhat in my area) but due to money problems, she wasn't able to stay in cinematography and has done more assisting/producing work. I know this has made her very sad, and it makes me sad.

So, it looks like i have a project coming through and she may be able to take some time off and I want to try and get her a camera to get her back on her feet.

At the moment, I'd like to get her a S16 Camera, but if I can't for cost reasons, I'll look at getting a camera that I know can be upgraded to S16 in the future. My budget is $5k, all in. What I'm looking for is the following:


1. Camera: S16 (Preferably) Sync Sound (This puts me looking at a NPR, Eclair II, or SR - other suggestions welcome)
2. Matte Box
3. Basic set of filters (ND, 85, 85A, etc)
4. Tripod
5. Handheld ability - She is a small girl, so ackwardness and weight of the camera can come into play.


My favorite camera from school was an aaton, but I think that that would be out of my price range. (Is it?)

Thanks for all the insights. It is greatly appreciated!
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#2 Tim Carroll

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 11:29 AM

My favorite camera from school was an aaton, but I think that that would be out of my price range. (Is it?)


I would seriously consider an Aaton LTR or LTR54 if your price range is $5000. Mitch Gross has an Aaton LTR54, Super 16, with three Super 16 mags, and the whole package has been recently overhauled by Abel Cine Tech in New York, and it has a video tap, for $7500. So I would not think $5000 for a package with two mags and no video tap would be out of the question.

If your fiancée likes to hand hold, the Aaton is the best 16mm camera on the market for hand held work.

Two of the other cameras you listed, NPR, Eclair II; will never be the camera an Aaton LTR is, and an Arriflex 16SR, though a really nice camera, is not going to be a good hand held camera for a woman who is described as "small". And a Super 16 conversion on an Arriflex 16SR done right is going to run you thousands of dollars.

I would hold out for finding an Aaton LTR in Super 16. It will give your fiancée more options.

-Tim
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#3 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:02 PM

I would seriously consider an Aaton LTR or LTR54 if your price range is $5000. Mitch Gross has an Aaton LTR54, Super 16, with three Super 16 mags, and the whole package has been recently overhauled by Abel Cine Tech in New York, and it has a video tap, for $7500. So I would not think $5000 for a package with two mags and no video tap would be out of the question.

If your fiancée likes to hand hold, the Aaton is the best 16mm camera on the market for hand held work.

Two of the other cameras you listed, NPR, Eclair II; will never be the camera an Aaton LTR is, and an Arriflex 16SR, though a really nice camera, is not going to be a good hand held camera for a woman who is described as "small". And a Super 16 conversion on an Arriflex 16SR done right is going to run you thousands of dollars.

I would hold out for finding an Aaton LTR in Super 16. It will give your fiancée more options.

-Tim


Thanks Tim. The input is much appreciated.

I've been leaning towards the Eclair's mainly due to being able to get a little more for the money (I think I would be able to get her alittle more set-up on an Eclair than an aaton right off the bat due to money) but I am a huge aaton fan.

My school mainly used Arris, which I liked, but the first time we had an aaton it was because all the arris were out and I fell in love.

Anyhow, you feel a aaton without a matte box and/or a tripod would be better than going with an Eclair with a matte box and tripod?
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#4 Tim Carroll

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:24 PM

Anyhow, you feel a aaton without a matte box and/or a tripod would be better than going with an Eclair with a matte box and tripod?


No question. If you want her to be a camera owner, and want her to be able to shoot hand held, and you want Super 16, then I would definitely get the Aaton camera first, and add the matte box, tripod, etc. as funds permit.

One thing to keep in mind. Look for a Super 16 Aaton LTR, as a regular 16 LTR would cost considerably to have a good conversion to Super 16.

Good luck,
-Tim
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#5 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:53 PM

One thing to keep in mind. Look for a Super 16 Aaton LTR, as a regular 16 LTR would cost considerably to have a good conversion to Super 16.

Good luck,
-Tim


I know you spoke of Mitch's LTR54, which I really wish I could swing, but that is a bit out for me..... How do you feel about the LTR 7 instead of a 54? Do you know what the key differences would be?
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#6 Tim Carroll

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:46 PM

I know you spoke of Mitch's LTR54, which I really wish I could swing, but that is a bit out for me..... How do you feel about the LTR 7 instead of a 54? Do you know what the key differences would be?


I've got an LTR 7 that is one of the last 7's made. It's very close to an LTR 54 but without the 54 fps motor. Mine, like all LTR 7's, has the 32 fps motor.

The earlier you go with the LTR 7 cameras the more issues you can run in to. The earlier ones were harder to convert to Super 16 (if I understand correctly, Nathan Milford would know more about this than I do), and there can be issues with the pulldown claws from the earlier cameras. Also the electronics were different.

From my understanding, during the production of the whole LTR range, the cameras were gradually changing. So a late model LTR 7 like mine is very similar to an early model LTR 54, whereas an early model LTR 7 would be quite different from Mitch Gross's late model LTR 54.

Make sense?

-Tim
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#7 andres victorero

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:10 PM

Hi, I suggest you to go for a Eclair ACL 1.5 or 2 S16. I sold mine (ACL2) for 3000$. You can get one from ebay around 3000 $ but you will have to spend in a overhaul. At your price range (500 $) I think that is the best option. You must to add to the camera some lens (ALC accepts C mount, Nikon 35mm still, Arri bayonet, STD or PL lens with adaptor -a very wide lens option) some filters and a 3x3 or 4x4 matte box.

I suggest you Eclair ACL 1.5 or 2, it can accept 400 ft mag, and it has a heavy duty motor with 24 and 25 sync and up to 72 fps.
If you can afford a Aaton LTR7 go for it but the final package will be more expensive than 5000$

good luck
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#8 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:10 PM

Make sense?

-Tim


Very much so! Thanks again!
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#9 chuck colburn

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:45 PM

You didn't mention a lens/es. Do you already have them/s?
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#10 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:50 PM

You didn't mention a lens/es. Do you already have them/s?


Thank for bringing that up.

No, we don't have lenses. i thought I had listed that, but it seems I am very mistaken.

I would, of course, love to get her primes, but i know that's not too realistic to start off and that I'd probably start with a zoom.

Any thoughts, please share as I am eager to hear suggestions on lenses too.
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#11 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 04:50 AM

At the moment, I'd like to get her a S16 Camera, but if I can't for cost reasons, I'll look at getting a camera that I know can be upgraded to S16 in the future. My budget is $5k, all in. What I'm looking for is the following:
1. Camera: S16 (Preferably) Sync Sound (This puts me looking at a NPR, Eclair II, or SR - other suggestions welcome)


I recommend to draw attention on russian professional 16 mm cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M.
[attachment=2261:camera_0_1.jpg]

This can be:
- original Normal 16 version with 25 fps analog sync motor,
- or modified Normal-16 with crystal sync speed motor,
- or modified Super 16, Arri PL with crystal sync speed motor.

Kinor-16 SX camera - pin registrated camera with reflex mirror disk, have 100 ft anfd 400 fy quick-change film magazine.
The set of russian LOMO prime lenses can be from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm.
Russian 16 OPF-12-1 10-100 zoom lens can be modify on Super 16 version with zoom range 12-120 mm.
A some LOMO prime lenses can cover of Super 16 film gate too.
About all technical sides of Kinor-16 ( and other russian cine camera ) can ask me.
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#12 Nate Downes

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 06:35 AM

I'm a big fan of the russian designs. Very reliable cameras.
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#13 Oron Cohen

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 07:03 AM

I recommend to draw attention on russian professional 16 mm cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M.
[attachment=2261:camera_0_1.jpg]

This can be:
- original Normal 16 version with 25 fps analog sync motor,
- or modified Normal-16 with crystal sync speed motor,
- or modified Super 16, Arri PL with crystal sync speed motor.

Kinor-16 SX camera - pin registrated camera with reflex mirror disk, have 100 ft anfd 400 fy quick-change film magazine.
The set of russian LOMO prime lenses can be from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm.
Russian 16 OPF-12-1 10-100 zoom lens can be modify on Super 16 version with zoom range 12-120 mm.
A some LOMO prime lenses can cover of Super 16 film gate too.
About all technical sides of Kinor-16 ( and other russian cine camera ) can ask me.


I think the Kinor is a very nice camera, very comfortable for hand-held work (very light compare to SR), and the prices are pretty low considering you are getting a modern design camera.
But, and this is very important to note, I think that you cant really consider this camera as a sync sound camera, it is too loud, for me it is to loud even with a custom made barney.
I wish maybe Olex can come up with a modify Kinor that would be quieter.
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#14 Nate Downes

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 07:58 AM

Good point. Hey Olex, want me to design a blimp for them? 8)
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#15 Jonathan Collins

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 12:14 PM

I think that you cant really consider this camera as a sync sound camera, it is too loud, for me it is to loud even with a custom made barney.



That is a pretty important aspect. I really want to get something that gives he a wide range on what she can do, also why I'm really pushing for Super 16 or 16.

Thanks for th info, I wasn't really too familiar with this camera.
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#16 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 01:32 PM

Good point. Hey Olex, want me to design a blimp for them? 8)


The many filmmakers to use of Kinor-16 camera and ask about outside blimp for this camera.
From my point of view, Kinor don't have too high noise, any case, the additional blimp can be good devise too.

I know, the one user of Kinor create of blimp, but, i have not a information about result.
I think, the design a blimp can be good idea.
I can give a sizes and other technical information.
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#17 Oron Cohen

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 01:32 PM

That is a pretty important aspect. I really want to get something that gives he a wide range on what she can do, also why I'm really pushing for Super 16 or 16.

Thanks for th info, I wasn't really too familiar with this camera.


Happy I could help. For the camera choice, I agree with the other comments about the Aaton (LTR54, LTR7, ACL 2), I think it is maybe your only option, considering that the Arri SR is too heavy. You just need to search to find one in good condition and in a reasonable price.
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#18 Nate Downes

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 01:38 PM

The many filmmakers to use of Kinor-16 camera and ask about outside blimp for this camera.
From my point of view, Kinor don't have too high noise, any case, the additional blimp can be good devise too.

I know, the one user of Kinor create of blimp, but, i have not a information about result.
I think, the design a blimp can be good idea.
I can give a sizes and other technical information.


Outside of a technical diagram, the best way would be to actually get a camera...

Well my birthday *is* coming up... *goes to hint to the wife*
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#19 chuck colburn

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:32 PM

Thank for bringing that up.

No, we don't have lenses. i thought I had listed that, but it seems I am very mistaken.

I would, of course, love to get her primes, but i know that's not too realistic to start off and that I'd probably start with a zoom.

Any thoughts, please share as I am eager to hear suggestions on lenses too.


I don't know if either of these two zooms covers S16 or not, but they are two of the better 16 zooms that Angenieux made for 16mm std. And are pretty fast for zooms.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/...VQQcmdZViewItem
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#20 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:42 PM

I've been leaning towards the Eclair's mainly due to being able to get a little more for the money (I think I would be able to get her alittle more set-up on an Eclair than an aaton right off the bat due to money) but I am a huge aaton fan.


The NPR's really awkward to go handheld with though. Aaton all the way.

Edited by Jonathan Bowerbank, 16 June 2007 - 02:44 PM.

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