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How short would I have to go for the fish eye look?


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#1 Joshua Dannais

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 12:44 AM

Hello I have been looking for some short lenses that would give the fish eye distortion...or slightly before distortion that would fit on my npr.

I was thinking about this lens, could anybody advise me?

Schneider Optics 10mm f/1.8 1" Cinegon Lens, and what size filter would I need for it.

Thanks
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 01:33 AM

You'd need to use at least a 5.9mm to get close to a fish-eye effect -- the 5.9mm is more of a super wide-angle effect but not fish-eye. 10mm is just plain wide-angle in 16mm photography.

I'd be looking for the 3.5mm Century for a fish-eye, or a 4mm super wide-angle.
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#3 David Auner aac

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 02:05 AM

You'd need to use at least a 5.9mm to get close to a fish-eye effect -- the 5.9mm is more of a super wide-angle effect but not fish-eye.


Hi Joshua and David,
to my knowledge a fish-eye is a different lens design, not just an ultra-wide angle lens. "Normal" wide angles are designed for rectilinear projection. As these design become shorter and shorter, barrel distortion (among other deficiencies) is introduced. This may look like a fish-eye but AFAIK it is not.
A true fish-eye isn't even trying to produce a "straight" rectilinear projection but a "curved" equiangular projection (as a side note: a fish-eye is nearly distortion free, to us what appears to be distortion is actually the equiangular projection). Wikipedia has a nice article on fish-eyes. You might want to check it out...
Hope that helps, Dave
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#4 Zachary Vex

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 10:52 AM

I have a Peleng 8mm f3.5 that wasn't too expensive and it's designed to be fisheye. It produces a circular result (mostly) in a standard SLR 355m frame but of course it covers a full S16 frame, while retaining a pretty fishy look. They're sold regularly on eBay for $300 with a Nikon mount, if you can use that.
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:36 AM

Hi Joshua and David,
to my knowledge a fish-eye is a different lens design, not just an ultra-wide angle lens. "Normal" wide angles are designed for rectilinear projection. As these design become shorter and shorter, barrel distortion (among other deficiencies) is introduced. This may look like a fish-eye but AFAIK it is not.
A true fish-eye isn't even trying to produce a "straight" rectilinear projection but a "curved" equiangular projection (as a side note: a fish-eye is nearly distortion free, to us what appears to be distortion is actually the equiangular projection). Wikipedia has a nice article on fish-eyes. You might want to check it out...
Hope that helps, Dave


Fine, but practically speaking, you can't rent fish-eye lenses for 16mm photography that aren't very short focal lengths, shorter than 10mm. Usually the "fish-eye" ones are labelled as such. What's confusing is the original question said he wanted fish-eye "or slightly before distortion" hence why I included super wide-angles as well as fish-eyes in my discussion.
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#6 Joshua Dannais

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 11:23 PM

You'd need to use at least a 5.9mm to get close to a fish-eye effect -- the 5.9mm is more of a super wide-angle effect but not fish-eye. 10mm is just plain wide-angle in 16mm photography.

I'd be looking for the 3.5mm Century for a fish-eye, or a 4mm super wide-angle.



First of all, thanks to everybody for all the great input.

Mr. Mullen, could you recommend a few super wide angle lenses that are available in a CA-1 mount or C mount, perhaps something in the 4mm neighborhood? If I read your post correctly, 4mm would not cause any distortion and would give a super-wide angle image? After thinking about it, I would have more use for a super-wide angle lens rather than fish eye.

thanks
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 12:04 AM

Except for the newest super wide-angle Zeiss Master Primes, most really wide angle lenses have some distortion. I'm not aware of what's available in C-mount or Eclair mount at that focal length. Probably the 5.7mm Kinoptic, maybe the 5.9mm Angenieux.
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#8 Joshua Dannais

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 01:01 AM

Just to clerify what I was trying to say, I know that there is always distortion regarding space and distance within a shot when it comes to anything other than a normal lens. What I meant by 'without causing distortion' was not causing a shot to pillow or look like this, but rather producing straight lines:


Rach.jpg

I'm going to look around and see if I can find a 5.7 Kinoptic or maybe the 5.9 Ang, if any more come to mind please let me know. thanks
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#9 Joshua Dannais

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 01:08 AM

Would an 8mm or 10mm be a better choice for a wide angle lens to limit this type of distortion?
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 01:12 AM

It's all a matter of degree and taste -- it's not like there is some hard demarkation where it's distorted and then it isn't. 10mm is a fine general wide-angle lens in 16mm. If you're looking for more of a Kubrickian wide-angle look, you may consider something more in the 6mm to 8mm range.
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#11 Joshua Dannais

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 02:07 AM

Thanks much... I think 8mm might be the sweet spot, what brands I should be looking for?
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#12 David Auner aac

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 04:55 AM

Fine, but practically speaking, you can't rent fish-eye lenses for 16mm photography that aren't very short focal lengths, shorter than 10mm. Usually the "fish-eye" ones are labelled as such.


Hi David,
I just wanted to point the difference between a wide angle and a "true" fish. It's a common misconception that a lens "becomes" a fish eye if it is shorter than a specific focal length.
Speaking of lenses for 16mm, do you or anyone else know of some kind of database of 16mm lenses? It would be nice to have a table of what focal lengths, brands and mounts is available. Same goes for 35mm of course, but from what I have recently seen there are more brands and mounts for 16mm around.

Regards, Dave
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#13 David Auner aac

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 09:16 AM

It would be nice to have a table of what focal lengths, brands and mounts is available. Same goes for 35mm of course, but from what I have recently seen there are more brands and mounts for 16mm around.


Hi folks,
my brand new ASC Manual arrived today and I found it has a really nice list of lenses in brand, focal length and speeds they come in. In my '04 edition it starts on page 582. I found that Century Optics, in addition to the ones that David mentioned, have nice 1.9 (!!!) mm T2.8 prime for 16mm. Anyone ever try that one?

Regards, Dave
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