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Kinor 16CX-2C ultra-16mm?


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#1 Oliver Smith

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 01:33 PM

I want to shoot ultra 16, period. I don't have any problems with the usual hurdles associated with the format. Without any debate, I'm going ultra.

The camera to be converted is a Kinor 16CX-2C. Can it be done with this camera, or will the registration pin cause problems?

A picture of the gate can be found here.

Can it be widened?

A second question: If s16 lenses are needed to cover the wider frame of s16, how come standard 16mm lenses are sufficient to cover the widened ultra 16 frame?
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#2 Robert Hughes

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:20 PM

I want to shoot ultra 16, period...

Can it be widened?

A second question: If s16 lenses are needed to cover the wider frame of s16, how come standard 16mm lenses are sufficient to cover the widened ultra 16 frame?

2nd question first - s16 expands into the old soundtrack area, and requires repositioning of the lens to recenter on the screen. Also, since the s16 frame is full height, you run a larger chance of vignetting in the corners of the newly widened frame. But with Ultra16, you aren't using the full frame height and you are widening the frame symmetrically, so you have less likelihood of vignetting in the corners.

1st question? I dunno, let us know when you've done it. Are you going to weaken the gate frame by filing out the end of the pulldown claw travel?
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#3 Ian Marks

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 03:01 PM

When I first heard about Ultra 16, I couldn't understand how "regular" wide angle lenses could cover the corners on this wider format. Then I saw this, and it all became clear:

Posted Image

One nice thing about this format is that it allows the cinematographer to continue using his sharp but non-Super-16 compatible zooms, like the Angenieux 9.5-57mm.
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 03:11 PM

When I first heard about Ultra 16, I couldn't understand how "regular" wide angle lenses could cover the corners on this wider format. Then I saw this, and it all became clear:

Posted Image

One nice thing about this format is that it allows the cinematographer to continue using his sharp but non-Super-16 compatible zooms, like the Angenieux 9.5-57mm.


Hi,

The diagram shows the circle of coverage required for Ultra 16 to be larger than R16. Remember many R16 zooms vignette into the full 16mm apeture, because of projector cut off &TV cut off those lenses were useable.

Stephen
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#5 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 03:27 PM

I want to shoot ultra 16, period. I don't have any problems with the usual hurdles associated with the format. Without any debate, I'm going ultra.

The camera to be converted is a Kinor 16CX-2C. Can it be done with this camera, or will the registration pin cause problems?


As i Know, Ultra 16 film gate have size 11.8 x 6.23 mm. 73.5 mm2
Normal 16 film gate have size 7.5 x 10.4 mm 78 mm2

If we told about screen rate 1.85:1 at N16 format, the size of picture will have
- 9.6 x 5.2 mm = 50 mm2

Yes, If we take rate 1.85: 1 and compare of N16 and U16, U16 have additional 52% of square of film.
But, If we compare of Super 16 ( 1.85:1 size of film gate 11.75 x 6.35 mm = 75 mm2 ) and U16 we don't have any increase of square of film.

From other side, the distance between perforation of 16 mm film have size 10.49 mm and the many 16 mm cine camera have film gates with two director-planes from every side of film.
The disatance between director-planes 10.1 mm ( from draft of film gate of Kinor-16 camera ).

If you make simply calculations, the two stripes from sides of U16 picture with width 0.85 mm (( 11.8 - 10.1)/2 =0.85 mm ) will have contact with parts of film rollers and film gate and can have scratches

Yes,of course, you can modify of film gate, pressure plates , film rollers and other parts of film channel and
diminish a width of all parts, to touching with film.
But, this is not easy modification of camera.

That's why, I prefer of Super 16 modification.


About Normal 16 lenses and Ultra 16 film gate.
Yes, The optical axis of lens and lens mount not change, but, to change of size of film gate.
The N16 film gate have diagonal 12.5 mm
The U16 film gate have diagonal 13.34 mm.
That's why, not all N16 lenses will compatible with U16 film gate, especially wide angle.
The all lenses need test with N16 film gate.

About modification of film gate of Kinor-16 camera on U16.
If you interested, i can make detailed calculation on draft of film gate of Kinor-16 camera,
but, the project of modification need to study from all sides.
I worry, the distance between of film gate and cut of transport pin have small size, need check of all sizes.
The registration pin will work with U16 version of film gate without any problem.
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#6 Ian Marks

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 09:09 PM

Hi,

The diagram shows the circle of coverage required for Ultra 16 to be larger than R16. Remember many R16 zooms vignette into the full 16mm apeture, because of projector cut off &TV cut off those lenses were useable.

Stephen


I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't a technical drawing done with perfect accuracy, but rather a simple illustration of the Ultra 16 concept for those (like me) who might have difficulty understanding it without the benefit of a visual aid. As for "many" zooms vignetting into the full frame, the only one I'm aware of is the Angenieux 10-150. That being said, I think Olex is right, and someone shooting Ultra 16 would want to test their wide angles to be absolutely sure that the image wasn't getting nicked at the corners.
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#7 kevin jackman

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 07:34 PM

from what ive seen ultra16 has a wider frame than super16 meaning you have to find lenses that will cover an even bigger image area. unless you are going to use 35mm lenses id say say you are hooped.
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#8 Martin Yernazian

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 10:24 PM

Can we please be done with Ultra 16 until more Technology can back up the experiment, this sounds like a Red Thread, I'm not a fan of saying this , but go look in the archives, plenty of ULtra 16


Sorry but the over questioning bothers me a little bit
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 02:03 AM

I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't a technical drawing done with perfect accuracy,

As for "many" zooms vignetting into the full frame, the only one I'm aware of is the Angenieux 10-150.


Hi,

May not be a an accurate technical drawing but clearly the circle required for U16 is bigger than for R16.

Ever seen what happens with Zeiss 10-100 when you pull focus around the MOD, it's often called called 'Portholing'.

What always suprises me with U16 is how the reality of the situation is overlooked. If it was so easy and such a good idea everybody would have done it by now.

Stephen
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#10 Vadim Trofymenko

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

If you make simply calculations, the two stripes from sides of U16 picture with width 0.85 mm (( 11.8 - 10.1)/2 =0.85 mm ) will have contact with parts of film rollers and film gate and can have scratches

About modification of film gate of Kinor-16 camera on U16.
If you interested, i can make detailed calculation on draft of film gate of Kinor-16 camera,
but, the project of modification need to study from all sides.
I worry, the distance between of film gate and cut of transport pin have small size, need check of all sizes.
The registration pin will work with U16 version of film gate without any problem.


Hi Olex!
So basically you are saying that I can file out 0.85 mm on both sides of the gate (Kinor-16) and it should work?
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#11 Will Montgomery

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

If you wait a little and save more, you'll be able to pick up an Arri SR3 Super 16 camera for $3000. They're prices are dropping like rocks. A recent auction of a camera rental house in LA had SR3's selling for as little as $700. No joke. Similar prices at a Boston Camera auction about 6 months ago. The SR3 is about the pinnacle of 16mm camera design, selling for over $100,000 just a few years ago. You'll never have to worry about getting a better camera because there simply isn't one (other than the 416 perhaps but there aren't that many out there.)
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#12 Rudy Velez Jr

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

So Ultra 16 with the Kinor is no go

 

however with Scoopics' and the K3 cameras it seems to be more compatible, or is this a misconception on my part?


Edited by Rudy Velez Jr, 16 April 2013 - 11:43 AM.

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