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Krasnogorsk-3 Scratches Film?


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#1 max sacker

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 01:08 PM

Hello All,


I just got my negative back from my lab. The guy at the lab told me the film was scratched
by the camera. He said this was either due to a fault in the camera or because it I misloaded
the film by making the loops too large.


This sounded dodgy to me. I spoke to two people familiar with the K-3 and they confirmed what I suspected: when the film is misloaded it does not run at all, and you can tell instantly that there is something wrong.


The rolls ran smoothly and I was told that this lab does have a history of scratching film during the development process.


This was a test film and the first time I used the K-3. Is it possible that the camera scratched the film or is this the lab trying to cover up their blunder?

If scratching can be caused by misloading, are there any tips for the loading process that can prevent it?

Would appreciate your input.
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#2 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 02:21 PM

Hello All,
I just got my negative back from my lab. The guy at the lab told me the film was scratched
by the camera. He said this was either due to a fault in the camera or because it I misloaded
the film by making the loops too large.
This sounded dodgy to me. I spoke to two people familiar with the K-3 and they confirmed what I suspected: when the film is misloaded it does not run at all, and you can tell instantly that there is something wrong.
The rolls ran smoothly and I was told that this lab does have a history of scratching film during the development process.
This was a test film and the first time I used the K-3. Is it possible that the camera scratched the film or is this the lab trying to cover up their blunder?

If scratching can be caused by misloading, are there any tips for the loading process that can prevent it?

Would appreciate your input.


At first, You need tell, the scratch from emulsion side or from rear side ?
What size have scratches, this is permanent or short or seriated.
You need study of style of scratches detailed.

Yes, If you load of film with big loops, the film can receive scratches from touch with body.
I recommend re-polishing of pressure plate of film channel, to take away of plastic film guides .
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#3 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:19 PM

Every K3 is a little different, but certainly it can scratch your film. Is this a new camera for you? Is it the first test or have you had successful reels in the past?

Has it been coverted to Super 16? Sometimes the outeredge can be scratched in that case. Usually in these K3 "upgrades" that everyone does all the surfaces are smoothed so if this happens again you may consider having that done.

Loops being too big might scratch it but it would be more of a larger "scuff" than a thin scratch I would think.

Also different stocks may run through the camera a little differently... Reversals (especially Kodachrome) are much thicker and react differently. My K3 always gave mixed results with B&W Negative stocks for some reason.
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#4 max sacker

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:44 PM

Also different stocks may run through the camera a little differently... Reversals (especially Kodachrome) are much thicker and react differently. My K3 always gave mixed results with B&W Negative stocks for some reason.


Yes this is the first test I have done on my K-3, though it was serviced and inspected (apparently) before I bought it.
The people I spoke to around here seem to all unanimously agree that it is the lab. Apaprently this happens occassionally at this particular lab. However I want to make certain that my K-3 is okay before I shoot anything important on it. I used Kodak VISION 200T and I someone else mentioned it could be the width of the stock that is causing the problem and that I should test reversal.

The scratch is on the emulsion side and is so deep that it penetrated the colour layer, making it purpleish-blue.
I have uploaded some pictures where this scratch can be seen. There are also smaller black scratches, and another
smaller, purpleish-blue one in the bottom right corner of the frame.

Maybe you can determine something from the pics.

Attached Images

  • scratch1.jpg

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#5 max sacker

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:50 PM

Here some of the minor scratches are more visible. These scratches are permanent. The camera still
has it's original 4:3 gate.

Is there anything I can do other than shooting another stock, checking for loose bits in my camera
or sending my camera away for refurbishment?

Attached Images

  • scratches.jpg

Edited by max sacker, 20 July 2007 - 12:55 PM.

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#6 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 03:17 PM

Doesn't look like the gate; it would probably be straight and longer if it was the gate. In fact I'm not sure what in the camera could cause scratches like that...

I would clean the film path well and try whatever stock you want to use one more time. Then try another recommended lab in Germany and check out the results. You need to see if its a consistant issue or a one-time thing. Often a lab might process one roll for free if you tell them its a camera test.
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#7 Chris Keth

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 09:27 PM

That's an emulsion scratch and it probably is from those look formers. When I had a K3 I removed them because they didn't work that well anyway. It was a simple procedure. Thereafter you just have to form the loops yourself, which is very simple because the K3 isn't that picky about loop size when the formers are gone.
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#8 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 08:54 AM

Here some of the minor scratches are more visible. These scratches are permanent. The camera still
has it's original 4:3 gate.

Is there anything I can do other than shooting another stock, checking for loose bits in my camera
or sending my camera away for refurbishment?


From my opinion.
This is not permanent scratches, because, i see short length inside of frame.
The permanent scratches go by a few frames without interruption.
I think, this is short, seriated scratches.
The any transport mechanism of camera have parts with permanent rotation ( cogs wheel ) and module
with intermittent motion ( mechanism of transport pin ).
The compensation of moving of film at cogs wheel and transpor pin make by upper and lower loops.
The size of loops inequable and depend of phase of full transport mechanism.
At time of stopping of transport pin, the size of upper loop will maximum, because, the cog's wheel give film on film gate, but, transport pin stoped.
At time of moving of film at film gate , the size of upper loop will diminish, because, the speed of move of film at film gate high from speed of film at cog's wheel.

If you set of big upper loop, the film can bend at time of maximum size of loop and touch of surface of film gate at upper side. This is from emulsion side.
The next, only the transport pin begin of move of film, the surface of film gate begin of make scratch, but, the size of loop diminish and film not touch of surface of film gate and scratch to end.
And next frame, the procedure of making of scratch will repeat.

I must underline, this is my supposition only.
I recommed to re-polish of film gate and load film with less upper loop.
The size of upper loop of K-3 influence of scratches on film.

The processing machine have permanent speed rotation and permanent speed of moving of film.
And all scratches from processing machine must have permanent long type.

The next idea.
Need check of mechanism of control of plastic spout guides of film of upper and lower loops.
If you press on plastic knob on long pin , the plastic spout guides must move and must make gaps between film and plastic guides.
If the lid of body open, The plastic spout guides use for set of correct length of loops.
But, if you closed of lid of body, the spout plastic guides must move and film must have gaps and not touch of surface of guides.
If this mechanism not work or work not correct ( guides move on short distance ) the film can touch of plastic spout guides.
That's why, i recommend take away of this plastic spout guides.


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