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dvcam to beta


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#1 kumar

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 06:04 AM

hi everybody,

my next shoot during preplaning. it is going launch on air on beta format. our budget is not enough using digibeta as mush cast. so we have planed shoot on dvcam, edit in avid or fcp(not yet confirmed.}.our concept is related with a female bodyart represent the location like particlar landmak like paisa tower like that.everyshot we having tight frame with low key (keylight only).
1)what is the range lens. i need.2)quality can i get good as i told that way(any other better way would i know).3)any related suggestion about what i post.
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 07:23 AM

Shooting on a Sony DRS 570 or DSR 450 will give much better results than shooting DVCam using a PD 170. A Canon wide angle zoom will allow close focusing without breathing as you pull focus.

It's pretty common to shoot on DVCam for delivery on DigiBeta.
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#3 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 11:05 AM

Shooting on a Sony DRS 570 or DSR 450 will give much better results than shooting DVCam using a PD 170. A Canon wide angle zoom will allow close focusing without breathing as you pull focus.

It's pretty common to shoot on DVCam for delivery on DigiBeta.


If you are editing on FCP 6 with all the great color correction you may want to import at a higher quality than firewire.

Presumeably component out and then input via a kona or black magic card at either DVC-Pro 50, 8 bit uncompressed, or 10 bit uncompressed should give more color correction flexibility than simply importing via firewire.
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#4 Walter Graff

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 08:05 PM

I do this every week. You can use most any good quality 3 chip CCD (DVX, XL2, PD170, etc) and no one will know the difference if you are an experienced shooter. I would disagree with most of the suggestions here. Simply import using firewire, edit in 8 bit uncompressed (10 bit is useless for both betacam and DVCAM because it offers headroom but your signal can't utilize it, like using a 5 gallon bucket with only two gallons of water). Output to Beta preferably in RGB. Depending on the network you may need to QC check the tape first or they may find technical errors (levels, color Etc). Use your vectorsocpe to make sure all colors are in range for your master output and an outboard waveform to make sure your levels conform to broadcast specs as they could cause you out of range specs that many networks will reject.
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#5 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 09:31 PM

I do this every week. You can use most any good quality 3 chip CCD (DVX, XL2, PD170, etc) and no one will know the difference if you are an experienced shooter. I would disagree with most of the suggestions here. Simply import using firewire, edit in 8 bit uncompressed (10 bit is useless for both betacam and DVCAM because it offers headroom but your signal can't utilize it, like using a 5 gallon bucket with only two gallons of water). Output to Beta preferably in RGB. Depending on the network you may need to QC check the tape first or they may find technical errors (levels, color Etc). Use your vectorsocpe to make sure all colors are in range for your master output and an outboard waveform to make sure your levels conform to broadcast specs as they could cause you out of range specs that many networks will reject.



You have your way, and then there are other ways.

You should try outputing either a Betacam SP or DVCAM signal via component output and then import via the DVC Pro 50 codec before knocking it as it probably is better than using straight firewire input.
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#6 Phil Connolly

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 11:45 AM

Import via the fire-wire port as DV25, it will result in the best quality images into the system. Going via componant will degrade the images. The info via firewire is exactly whats on the tape, so using Black magic or some other SDI card isn't going to add quality that doesnt exist.

But don't grade the project at DV 25 - because any changes you make to the image will be re-compressed by the codec and degraded quite quickly. Its best to import as DV 25 then transcode to 8/10 bit uncompressed, or if your disks/computer is not fast enough DVCPRO50.

If you have access to an Online suite throughout and a DVCAM deck with SDI out, you could digitise directly at 8 or 10 bit uncompressed and skip the transcode step. Personally I would still digitise everything via firewire at DV25 resolution then just transcode the final shots you use rather then everything. The quality will be the same but diskspace is more efficient, uncompressed takes a lot more space than DV, so if you have a lot of rushes DV is better.

Once its graded - its just a matter of playing out directly to Digi-Beta so you need a edit suit with SDI out, don't play out to DV and then dub to Digi-Beta as you will loose quality.
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#7 Walter Graff

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:47 PM

Thanks Phil for the only logical approach. Many of these folks seem to want to squeeze blood from stone and come up with these Rube Goldberg methods that they think makes an image look better or gives it some sort of mystical headroom it doesn't need. You can tell them over and over and show them example after example and still the myths rules.
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#8 Phil Connolly

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 06:19 PM

Yep theres lots of odd ideas out there when it comes to post producing DV. But the basic answer is the fire DV25 signal is the best your going to get off that tape. Post producing uncompressed will not add quality, but it will reduce picture degridation during grading. So a cuts only edit - straight DV would give the same quality as uncompressed.

Regarding 10bit - although DV is only 8 bit, Digi-Beta is 10 bit, so working in a 10 bit colour space will make things look a bit better eg fades can be smoother as there are more luma levels, more shade of grey - reducing the possibility of banding - etc. Likewise grades will be a bit more accurate as the maths of colour correction will be using 10 bit precision rather than 8bit. It will look better but not massively as your only starting with 8 bit DV, It won't magically add quality but will reduce the amount of degredation to the pictures in a heavy grade. Thats why some onlines work at even higher bit rates internally such as 12bit for Avid DS Nitris.

If you have a suite that can do 10 bit and your going to digi-beta there's no harm in using it but the difference will be pretty minimal over 8 bit - but the extra disk space required is not massive.
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#9 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:44 AM

Import via the fire-wire port as DV25, it will result in the best quality images into the system. Going via componant will degrade the images. The info via firewire is exactly whats on the tape, so using Black magic or some other SDI card isn't going to add quality that doesnt exist.

But don't grade the project at DV 25 - because any changes you make to the image will be re-compressed by the codec and degraded quite quickly. Its best to import as DV 25 then transcode to 8/10 bit uncompressed, or if your disks/computer is not fast enough DVCPRO50.

If you have access to an Online suite throughout and a DVCAM deck with SDI out, you could digitise directly at 8 or 10 bit uncompressed and skip the transcode step. Personally I would still digitise everything via firewire at DV25 resolution then just transcode the final shots you use rather then everything. The quality will be the same but diskspace is more efficient, uncompressed takes a lot more space than DV, so if you have a lot of rushes DV is better.

Once its graded - its just a matter of playing out directly to Digi-Beta so you need a edit suit with SDI out, don't play out to DV and then dub to Digi-Beta as you will loose quality.


Wrong.

Component output and then input at DVC Pro-50 codec. Don't trash this workflow until you've tried it.
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#10 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:46 AM

Thanks Phil for the only logical approach. Many of these folks seem to want to squeeze blood from stone and come up with these Rube Goldberg methods that they think makes an image look better or gives it some sort of mystical headroom it doesn't need. You can tell them over and over and show them example after example and still the myths rules.


Or you could actually try component output and then transcode via a kona or black magic card at DVC-pro 50 codec or higher BEFORE you trash it.
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#11 Phil Connolly

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 02:39 PM

Wrong.

Component output and then input at DVC Pro-50 codec. Don't trash this workflow until you've tried it.



Actually, I have used similar workflow's, I've done loads of jobs using component kit - working with pretty much every tape format from analogue to digital - but these days the only time I'm called to work with analogue is on documentaries that require archive. Ultimately you use what you have access to and if thats component then its good enough. I'm not trying to trash it - to be awkward, it would work - but whats the point it costs more and results in less quality.

If you want to edit in the DVCPRO 50 codec , which is a pretty good codec - why would you want to use componant? I don't understand if DV25 over firewire transcoded is better quality and requires less kit and a cheaper deck. Many DV decks don't have component outs, but they all have firewire. The only advantage of the above workflow is no render time for the transcode, but thats not a big deal these days. Digitising via SDI would avoid any transcodes, look better than component - its pretty rare to find an online suite that doens't have SDI and is component only.


But for best quality if your shooting on a digital format and delivering on a digital format, why would you want to mess about with component or any form of analogue? - Your putting your signal through D to A converters and A to D converters - this can only degrade the image. If you already own component kit and it would cost you more to stay digital - thats the only argument to use component. But the fact is a component capture card costs a lot more than a firewire interface and from a DV 25 source the fire wire will result in better picture quality as you are getting a bit for bit EXACT DATA CLONE OF WHATS ON THE TAPE into your edit suit. Component can only be worse - how can it be better than an exact clone - its not magic.

As long as the project in the edit suit is uncompressed or DVCPRO50 the DV 25 gets transcoded to the better format to reduce picture degredation.

As far as laying back to Digi-Beta, if you have post produced uncompressed or at DVCPRO 50, you will get better results laying back via a component output then you would with a fire-wire solution. But Ideally you would be using SDI - its the best quality and SDI cards are cheaper that component.

I don't want to get into a crazy analogue vs digital argument on the internet. The fact is correctly handled fully digital workflows will give you better quality and be cheaper to do if you were to buy the kit.

The only reasons to mess with analogue are:

You have shot on an analogue format or are delivering on an analogue format (increasingly less likely)
You already own or have cheap access to analogue kit and it works out cheaper for you - but analogue typically gives you less bang for your buck. Compare the cost of a blackmagic digital only card and their component card.
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#12 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 05:30 PM

.......But for best quality if your shooting on a digital format and delivering on a digital format, why would you want to mess about with component or any form of analogue? - Your putting your signal through D to A converters and A to D converters - this can only degrade the image. If you already own component kit and it would cost you more to stay digital - thats the only argument to use component. But the fact is a component capture card costs a lot more than a firewire interface and from a DV 25 source the fire wire will result in better picture quality as you are getting a bit for bit EXACT DATA CLONE OF WHATS ON THE TAPE into your edit suit. Component can only be worse - how can it be better than an exact clone - its not magic.

As long as the project in the edit suit is uncompressed or DVCPRO50 the DV 25 gets transcoded to the better format to reduce picture degredation.


Upconverting a digital format to another digital format won't increase the quality. Outputing via analog component signal and using a DVC pro 50 codec gives you much more digital room to do effects and layering work. Uncompressed codecs are NOT supported by all add on editing software. As you probably know, the analog outputs of many dv cameras actually output a higher quality signal than the compressed digital signal being laid to tape. The advantage of outputing mini-dv via component signal and using the DVC Pro-50 codec revolves around a more efficient use of codec versus doing straight uncompressed than dealing with programs that don't support uncompressed and the increased use of hard drive space, and the quality may actually be better.

I agree with you that not all decks offer component output, so this workflow won't work for everyone. But for those who want to eeke out a bit more quality from their mini-dv project, try the component output and transcoding to DVC-Pro 50 codec. You'll have to find a digital decks with component outputs start around 2,000 dollars.

DVC Pro-50 codec gives one the benefit of a true quality codec while optimizing the signal being received.

The only reasons to mess with analogue are:

You have shot on an analogue format or are delivering on an analogue format (increasingly less likely)
You already own or have cheap access to analogue kit and it works out cheaper for you - but analogue typically gives you less bang for your buck.


This is incorrect. Betacam SP outputed via component and then transcoded to DVC Pro 50 would be better than outputting to either component or S-Video and going to a mini-dv codec.

Compare the cost of a blackmagic digital only card and their component card.


It depends on what you are comparing. Component cards are made that offer analog transcoding of high end digital codecs, of course they would cost less than cards that offer component AND HD transcoding.
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Visual Products

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