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AKG vs SENH


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#1 joe garcia

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 10:20 PM

Plzz
Your opnions are gold to me, how do AKG shotguns compare with Senheiser.
I'm sure they are both pretty good (model in the 400 to 600 range) and I'm trying make a decission on which to buy.
For now I'm looking to shoot Human Interest and Docu stuff, with an ocassional instrumentalist ( Organ, Guitar, etc) not whole bands just one on one.
What do you suggest?
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#2 Dan Goulder

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:40 AM

Plzz
Your opnions are gold to me, how do AKG shotguns compare with Senheiser.
I'm sure they are both pretty good (model in the 400 to 600 range) and I'm trying make a decission on which to buy.

In the 400-600 range, you may want to go with AKG. If you're willing to go over 1,000 you may like the Sennheiser MKH 416 (or MKH 60). These are new mic prices. Used mics can be a gamble, sometimes a good deal, sometimes not.
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#3 Christopher Kennedy Alpiar

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 11:10 AM

The main thing is what *type* of mic to buy, less then what brand. For recording acoustic instruments or voice in a controlled environment you want to use large diaphragm condensor mic's. For recording interview type vocals, lavalier is the way to go. For recording really loud instruments or ones with a harsh attack, like a marshall stack turned up to "11" ;) or a snare drum of a rock player something like a Shure SM-57 is the way to go. If recording outside and recording voice, shotgun is the way to go. There is no all purpose mic that will give you pro results for any situation. I understand budget constraints, but try your best to treat your audio with equal importance to your film/video in terms of planning, care and money spent on gear and you will get far =)
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#4 Christopher Kennedy Alpiar

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 11:17 AM

here are some good reading on stereo and single mic techniques:

Stereo micing techniques:
http://www.tape.com/...a2923 995498793

http://www.soundonso...ereomiking.html

Single mic/mic placement techniques:
http://members.tripo...icrophones.html

http://www.shure.com...icstudio_ea.pdf

http://www.tape.com/resource/mics.html

Vocal mic technique:
http://www.vocalist....techniques.html

General Mic tech info:
http://arts.ucsc.edu...0/teces_20.html
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#5 joe garcia

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 12:15 PM

Thanks to both parties for advice and articles. This is all very sound advice and info I can keep as my skills and equipment evolves.
For this interview I have an OK lav(Crown 100e wired xlr) and enough info to get that AKG if it's gonnabeat a Sens K6/me66 in this environment.

The protagonist in this short is a woman who plays a pipe organ at a local church, and to be quite honest, the interview means more to me than any music grabs.
The point of interest is the profound love for this intense instrument despite surving a previous stroke that left her with hemi-plegia and all the challenges this condition would produce. It's my opportunity to applaude her for her love for God, her congregation, and this special instument.
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#6 Christopher Kennedy Alpiar

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 03:08 PM

2 quick thoughts to add: 1st is if your subjects heart and soul is in her playin gof the pipe organ, it would be in everyones interest (i think) to research a little bit on best ways to record pipe organ. She will be happier, people that watch it (more then likely people that love organ) will be impressed with the amazing quality of sound you were able to get. Attention to those kind of details is what makes you an A list call instead of B list. I would guess that a stereo pair of hyper cardioid mics in an X pattern in the room someplace would be best, but read up a little on it.

2nd while you might get a better single type of mic with the AKG (not saying you will necessarily but for the point of this argument [I use regularly both brands]) with the K6/ME66 combo, when you need to get other types of capsules for recording different things well you just have to buy the capsule and screw it right onto the K6 you already have! Might be cheaper and still you get very good quality. Not trying to change your mind, but just wanted to bring up this point to think on when you make your decision. I am sure tho that either one you go with will be a good choice!

best
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#7 Hal Smith

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 08:18 PM

Organ can be real tricky to record. An big organ is spread over quite a large area and if you try to individually mike sections of the organ you can end up with an edgy sounding recording due to comb effect interference between the different mikes. One solution that works is an Mid-Side microphone pair consisting of an figure-8 pattern mike recording side to sideways and a cardiod microphone facing forward. The two mikes are fed into an electronic matrix that recovers left and right from the two signals. Another is the baffled mike pair sphere which is a pair of (usually) cardiod mikes facing forward and angled out with a sound absorbing baffle between them, Schoeps and Neumann make these. A third method is an artificial head microphone, usually used for true binaural recording but they can produce a good stereo recording. All three are basically ways of recording a stereo image from one position. I once wandered around a large church with an M-S setup, battery powered preamp, and listening with a pair of closed back headphones to find the best spot for a single point recording, the previous recordings of that particular organ (a gorgeous old Roosevelt in an Alabama church) always had unevenness to them due to interference patterns both due to recording technique and the acoustics of the church itself. M-S got rid of enough of it to get a pretty nice sounding recording.
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#8 joe garcia

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 12:28 AM

Great points from both of you,,,
Chris the AKG i'm checking out is Blue-line series shotgun with power mudule so the kit is quite comperable to the K6 set-up.
I started out looking at the K6 for all the reasons you just mentioned. With limited knowledge I compared it to the AKG being offered to me and felt the AKG to be the superior mic, hence my request for help in comparison of the two. Ultimately i may go with that AKG if I like the capsules that work with it (feature-wise cause I'd think quality-wise is a given). And if the K6 reveals to have better playmates then I guess I'd go with it as my second choice.

Hal,,, wow thanks for the various techniques you suggested. Mid-side seems to be the way for me to go given it's apaent simplicity and the limitations of my equipment. But I dare to predict that I could pull that off just fine since I do have the two needed chanels on the cam. The mics will not allow for true Mid-Side since niether mic has the figue 8 pattern but I'd like to give it a go and see what I can do.
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#9 Karl Lohninger

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 04:42 AM

For now I'm looking to shoot Human Interest and Docu stuff, with an ocassional instrumentalist ( Organ, Guitar, etc) not whole bands just one on one.
What do you suggest?


Joe, you didn't mention if you're going to mount the mic onto a camera or if there's a sound person at hand. Without going into the AKG vs. Sennheiser argument, which is wrongly asked anyway, because there are Sennheisers and Sennheisers and the same with AKGs, the question would be more, which 'kind' of microphone you'd want to use. A 'shotgun' microphone will help you to pull out certain audible events from the background, more so than i.e. a hypercardiod, but then a hypercardiod tends to sound somewhat more natural, esp. when mounted onto a camera, because you get less 'strained' sound audio that comes from outside its 'pickup pattern'.
Personally i find all Sennheiser mics below the mkh series rather offensive sounding and not worth the money. I'd prefer the AKG blue line or, better the ULS series. But check also the audio technica mics, the 40 series, not stuff like the 835 or so, they suck.

Regarding one of the posted wisdoms of what microphone you'd need for recording voices or music or whatever....like for acoustic instruments you'll need a 'large diaphragm' mic and for voices a 'lavalier' etc....I'm sorry, but this is just total nonsense......;-(

If you're trying to record any kind of musical performance, try to decouple your microphone from the camera, iow, don't move it around, find a place that covers the performance and leave it there and run a cable to the camera...and don't forget, many cameras are able to record 2 tracks, so split them with an on camera mike on one side and another one on the other.

Just start doing it and learn and listen. Always be aware that the position of the mike is most of the time more important than what brand you're using.....;-)

good luck, k
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#10 joe garcia

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:54 PM

Well actually guys n gals, I am so stoked !! The AKG was still available and I ran with the deal,,, good vender, quick ship,, and all that other jelly...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"" KARL ""
Joe, you didn't mention if you're going to mount the mic onto a camera or if there's a sound person at hand. Without going into the AKG vs. Sennheiser argument, which is wrongly asked anyway, because there are Sennheisers and Sennheisers and the same with AKGs, the question would be more, which 'kind' of microphone you'd want to use.

===========


Karl I'm glad you posted, your point is well taken Chris Kenny made this point also.. (it's the type of mic, not so much the brand)
First, I may have to use a mic stand for now (they came cheap) cause I'd like not to touch the cam with the mic on it,,,
I have no audio guy/gal cause I can't find anyone with interest and no-way can I pay a pro...
Also, this mic came at a gift price. It's the AKG CK98 short shottie blue-line.
Knowing you endorse them is reassuring.

==========

''KARL''
If you're trying to record any kind of musical performance, try to decouple your microphone from the camera, iow, don't move it around, find a place that covers the performance and leave it there and run a cable to the camera...and don't forget, many cameras are able to record 2 tracks, so split them with an on camera mike on one side and another one on the other.

Just start doing it and learn and listen. Always be aware that the position of the mike is most of the time more important than what brand you're using.....;-)

===========

This is the plan of attack Karl, my subjest is in an upper room where the organ resides along with a few pipes (I'm sure other pipes are set about the sanctuary as well)
I'm hoping the acustical qualities are OK enough to pull this off and will attempt to
1 LAV subject during interview (think I should ommitt the shotgun for the moment ??)
2 For the music capture will attempt Mid-Pass technique ?? I think that's the term. It involves one mic aim toward sound source and 2nd aimed @ 90 degrees Both mics are set in close proximity
Supposedly the technique results in a rich sound given the lack of gear involved.



joe
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#11 Christopher Kennedy Alpiar

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 02:40 PM

Regarding one of the posted wisdoms of what microphone you'd need for recording voices or music or whatever....like for acoustic instruments you'll need a 'large diaphragm' mic and for voices a 'lavalier' etc....I'm sorry, but this is just total nonsense......;-(

If you're trying to record any kind of musical performance, try to decouple your microphone from the camera, iow, don't move it around, find a place that covers the performance and leave it there and run a cable to the camera...and don't forget, many cameras are able to record 2 tracks, so split them with an on camera mike on one side and another one on the other.

Just start doing it and learn and listen. Always be aware that the position of the mike is most of the time more important than what brand you're using.....;-)

good luck, k


All depends in what you want Karl. I have worked professionally as an engineer and studio musician in recording studios for over 25 years. If you want true sound of all the harmonic frequencies of an acoustic instrument, or voice, you almost always want to use a large diaphragm condensor, or a ribbon mic in some cases. Of course if you dont really care as long as the sound is in the general ballpark, heck you can use anything. I never said for on location to use a large diaphragm, and i never would since you will get every pindrop in the room along with your instrument unless you are really in tune with a top quality noise gate. Now since you obviously read the words of my post but not the meaning I will help you. What I was saying was not you must use this kind of mic for this kind of thing NO. The point was that there is NO multi purpose mic that will work on every situation. So kindly buzz off on criticisms that are based on poor reading skill
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#12 Karl Lohninger

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 03:56 PM

[quote name='Christopher Kennedy Alpiar' date='Aug 9 2007, 12:40 PM' post='187333']
All depends in what you want Karl. I have worked professionally as an engineer and studio musician in recording studios for over 25 years. If you want true sound of all the harmonic frequencies of an acoustic instrument, or voice, you almost always want to use a large diaphragm condensor, or a ribbon mic in some cases.

Oh man, so much confusion.....let's leave it at that.

k
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#13 joe garcia

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 03:58 PM

Gee folks, unless there is something I'm not aware of(in which case I'll butt out of it if there is) I'm pretty sure Karl was probably not slinging dirt but has a strong mind about the '' large diaphragm, or not large diaphragm '' argument.

I took it as ,,, based on my original help request,,, Karl saw it best to push my considerations toward mic placement and technique before relying on the hard and fast rules a pro might want to adhere to given the availability of a wider array of tools than just a second rate lav and a decent AKG shotgun (which is my present artilliry)
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#14 Karl Lohninger

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 04:18 PM

First, I may have to use a mic stand for now

that's good!

Also, this mic.. It's the AKG CK98 short shottie blue-line.

It works well. Try to get additional capsules for it, cardiod, omni, hypercardioud and there's also a nice double8. Check ebay, there is good offers out there.


This is the plan of attack Karl, my subjest is in an upper room where the organ resides along with a few pipes (I'm sure other pipes are set about the sanctuary as well)
I'm hoping the acustical qualities are OK enough to pull this off and will attempt to
1 LAV subject during interview (think I should ommitt the shotgun for the moment ??)
2 For the music capture will attempt Mid-Pass technique ?? I think that's the term. It involves one mic aim toward sound source and 2nd aimed @ 90 degrees Both mics are set in close proximity
Supposedly the technique results in a rich sound given the lack of gear involved.

If I understand correctly, the subject is not playing and talking at the same time...? If so, you can easily use your main microphone for that. Lavaliers are somewhat of a necessary evil. None of them really sounds good, lots of them sound pretty bad. And in your case, with no wireless systems at hand (again if understood correctly) there is really no reason to use a lavalier at all. Put your mic on a stand, mount it in a way that it sits just outside of the (picture) frame and voila.
Regarding capturing a church organ, a shot gun microphone isn't really the first choice, but I do understand that what you're doing is some kind of documentary...so you use what you have at hand. Try to find the right balance (= distance!) between the sound produced by the organ (pipes) and the sound reflected back by the walls....if you get too much audio reflections (reverb) it'll sound washed out, if you're getting too close to the pipes you'll get too much direct sound. Organ builders knew a bit about organ size, church size etc. So use your ears first, walk around and listen and then put the stand there....and of course listen also with headphones now through your recorder, the camera as your ears are somewhat different than a shotgun microphone.

The 'midpass' method you're mentioning is correctly call 'mid-side'. It does involve 2 microphones, but one of them needs to be a figure8 (for the sides) and the other one could be, depending, any kind of a more directional mic pattern. I figure you don't have a figure8 mic at this time, so I'd rather forget about that. Professional recordings of big organs tend to make use of a stereo set up, using mostly 2 cardios spread well apart, and that on rather big stands to get them really high up......but that's a different thing. Just use your ears and try your best and go from there.

good luck, k



joe


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#15 joe garcia

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 08:32 PM

Thanks Karl

It's apparent I am learning cause your last post validates my thinking here.

You guessed right, the subject will not play and talk during shoot. I don't feel trained enough to chance it.

AM glad you like the mic stand option. It really seemed to be best workaround for me. Will work to find that sweatspot in the room as you suggested and omit the lav.

Also thanks for advising against mid side. I know it would require a mic with figure 8 pattern from article links above. I was entertaining the thought of trying it to see but would rather save the trial and error time for better use.

I can't thank you and everyone else who contributed here. I hope I can be of service to you all at some point. I think the next step is to make it all happen. Am waiting for permission to shoot it, then it's post time.

Thank you all for sharing the wealth.
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