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#1 Luke Haywood

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 07:30 AM

Hi there.

I've been reading about the RED camera on different Internet forums some time, and
I have registered with a few of them. But it seems ridiculously hard to get sensible information. I don't want to get into an argument about how the RED will overhaul the film industry or wheher I hate Jim Jannard because of my celluloid fixation, you know, just the facts, ma'm.

Reduser.net is sort of informative sometimes, but most of the people posting there sound like they're on something!
I asked some questions about the RED there but my post seems to have disappeared, and reading about reduser on other forums, indicates this is not unusual! This forum obviousy has its share of Bozos too, but the difference is they don't seem to be in control of it (yet, although one character here seems to be trying hard :-)

Theres a lot of things I don't understand about the RED, silly things like:

How do you get the pictures out of the camera? Does it have a serial data
link or analog component like a TV studio camera? Or can you only get the data off the recording device?

When do actual deliveries start? According to what they said earlier, the first cameras should be shipping now in August. But a few days ago on Reduser.net, Jim Jannard is saying things like he will have to cut back on features because the programmable chips he is using are too expensive or getting too crowded or something, and is asking whether anybody really wants 1080 HD.

But $4K for a bigger FPLA chip? What kind of chip costs that much? Or does he mean it will cost an average of $4K for the programming. But if they haven't even got the programming or the size of the chips worked out, what are they shipping?

And finally, what is actually recorded in the camera or its storage device? What I mean is, does the camera produce live 4K on the fly, or does the de-Bayer processing happen in not real-time. In other words, does the recorded RAW pixels have to be "developed" by REDCODE.
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#2 Matthew Rogers

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 08:09 AM

Hi there.

I've been reading about the RED camera on different Internet forums some time, and
I have registered with a few of them. But it seems ridiculously hard to get sensible information. I don't want to get into an argument about how the RED will overhaul the film industry or wheher I hate Jim Jannard because of my celluloid fixation, you know, just the facts, ma'm.

Reduser.net is sort of informative sometimes, but most of the people posting there sound like they're on something!
I asked some questions about the RED there but my post seems to have disappeared, and reading about reduser on other forums, indicates this is not unusual! This forum obviousy has its share of Bozos too, but the difference is they don't seem to be in control of it (yet, although one character here seems to be trying hard :-)

Theres a lot of things I don't understand about the RED, silly things like:

How do you get the pictures out of the camera? Does it have a serial data
link or analog component like a TV studio camera? Or can you only get the data off the recording device?

When do actual deliveries start? According to what they said earlier, the first cameras should be shipping now in August. But a few days ago on Reduser.net, Jim Jannard is saying things like he will have to cut back on features because the programmable chips he is using are too expensive or getting too crowded or something, and is asking whether anybody really wants 1080 HD.

But $4K for a bigger FPLA chip? What kind of chip costs that much? Or does he mean it will cost an average of $4K for the programming. But if they haven't even got the programming or the size of the chips worked out, what are they shipping?

And finally, what is actually recorded in the camera or its storage device? What I mean is, does the camera produce live 4K on the fly, or does the de-Bayer processing happen in not real-time. In other words, does the recorded RAW pixels have to be "developed" by REDCODE.


The reason your posts have probably not been answered at reduser is they have already been answered there before. But I will go ahead and answer what I can.

To get your image out of the camera you have a couple of different ways. First way, shoot to Hard Drive/Compact Flash/Express Card and then plug those into your computer to copy the footage to use. From there you can basic color correct RAW footage and then convert it into another codec for editing. Second way, either use single HD-SDI/Dual HD-SDI/or HDMI to connect to a tape based recorder. I imagine most people who do this are going to choose HDCAM as their record format. Lastly, RAW Port. You'll hook special cable up to the RAW Port and then hook it up to a VERY large raid since the data rate is 700+ MB's a second (I think I read that you'll need 16 drives min to get enough speed.)

As far as we've been told, delivery is still supposed to start the end of August. Unless they find a big problem in the next 2 weeks, I believe, they will be shipping on time.

No clue about the FPLA chip. There's been alot of talk of frame rate over there that's really confusing. Personally, if they can't do 60P in 4k, then I rather have 60P+ in 1080 scaled from 4k instead of 2k cropped with a higher frame rate. I am going to be working in a max of 1080 unless I do some work for a movie or theater commercial. (Actually, the last theater commercial I delivered wanted 720P DVCPROHD.)

I wanna say that the De-Bayer happens in post "developing" if you shoot RAW. It was also said the other day that you can used some REDCODE Mini app to quickly add a wrapper to the footage which makes it viewable in Quicktime player. True, it seems like the work flow is no longer shoot, plug in the hard drive, and edit. However, it's still quicker than getting film developed, telecined, and shipped back. My work flow right now for HDV is digest either off tape or hard drive and then transcode to a better editing codec (last project used ProRes, worked nicely!)

If you want more questions cleared up, just ask and I'll try and answer the.

Matthew
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#3 Nate Downes

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 08:30 AM

But $4K for a bigger FPLA chip? What kind of chip costs that much? Or does he mean it will cost an average of $4K for the programming. But if they haven't even got the programming or the size of the chips worked out, what are they shipping?


I think you mean an FPGA, Field-Programmable Gate Array. Basically, they're programmable chips, and yes, some of the most massive ones cost several thousand dollars. But for a company like RED, with all of the custom work needed, the FPGA, as slow and clunky as they are, is often times the only cost-effective solution. Unless they start making thousands of REDs a month, anyways.
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#4 Luke Haywood

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 11:49 PM

I think you mean an FPGA, Field-Programmable Gate Array. Basically, they're programmable chips, and yes, some of the most massive ones cost several thousand dollars. But for a company like RED, with all of the custom work needed, the FPGA, as slow and clunky as they are, is often times the only cost-effective solution. Unless they start making thousands of REDs a month, anyways.

Yes, you're right he did say FPGA. I was thinking of Field Programmable Logic Array, which I think is the same thing. I would have thought the internal processing would be done by some sort of high-speed microprocessor.

Second way, either use single HD-SDI/Dual HD-SDI/or HDMI to connect to a tape based recorder. I imagine most people who do this are going to choose HDCAM as their record format.

Sorry, I'm still none the wiser. Does that mean you can take live SDI or HDMI from the camera already downsampled to 1080 and feed that either into an existing recording/editing setup, or go straight to air as 1080 HD?

And if it is available "live", are there any specs available on what the processing delay is? It might be in there somewhere, but I can't find it.
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#5 Hank den Drijver

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 06:43 PM

On Reduser.net there is a FAQ. Check
http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=1487
Good luck!
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#6 Carl Brighton

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 05:24 AM

Hi there.

I've been reading about the RED camera on different Internet forums some time, and
I have registered with a few of them. But it seems ridiculously hard to get sensible information. I don't want to get into an argument about how the RED will overhaul the film industry or wheher I hate Jim Jannard because of my celluloid fixation ...

I started out the same way late last year, and I haven't really gotten much more information that I started out with! If you ask questions that start with: "But hang on, if that's the case then why don't they....." you'll just get a lot of abuse and/or arguments from ignorance. (You know: "you can't possibly know what is going on in so-and-so's head, so therefore how dare you even comment!")

I was interested in the RED as a TV studio camera whose output could also be convincingly transferred to film. However, that project has now been cancelled so I'm not as interested as I was.

Apart from that, as far as I can work out, all Jannard has demonstrated so far is just the camera body with a CMOS sensor, some sort of elementary on-board digital Bayer-to-Component processor and some sort of recorder interface. That would certainly allow Peter Jackson et al to shoot and record footage, but the process would still be analogous to shooting film, in that most of the "developing" as you put it would take place in Post.

The giveaway is the that the monitor output is 720p, whereas just about all LCD monitors available now will accept 1920 x 1080p, although they may not actually display it. Given that stunningly good, true 1920 x 1080 pixel, large screen LCD panels are now available, and the prices are in free-fall, it seems insane to only have 720p Monitor output.

Jannard is free to correct me on this, but a 720p output sounds remarkably like what you would get from elementary non-intelligent processing of a 4K Bayer-Filtered chip. What he's been saying on Reduser.net is confusing, it's not at all clear what will be available on the first production cameras.

The irony of all this is that on Reduser.net, what they're debating now is the virtues of taking the output of a 4K Bayer Filtered chip, (whose true resolution can only ever be approximately equivalent to an ordinary 1920 x 1080 HDTV camera), applying Graeme Nattress's software to tart it up to look like 4K, and then downsampling it back down to 1920 x 1080!

And it just seems to me that the same people who, a few years ago were shouting that the 1440 x 768 images of Star Wars II were "better than film!!" are now pooh-poohing the idea of having a 1080p output on the RED, like you know, that's just for (hoik - splat!) television!

There's also a lot of heated argument about 1080i vs 1080p from people who obviously don't understand the first thing about it except: "interlace bad, progressive GOOOO-O-O-OD!!!!!"

But I must say, I did learn a lot. Not too much from anybody at RED though :lol:

----------------------------------------

"On Reduser.net there is a FAQ. Check
http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=1487
Good luck!"

Been there. Done that. A better title would be "FABNRAQ" - Frequently Asked But Never Really Answerd Questions <_<
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#7 Matthew Rogers

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 12:56 PM

The giveaway is the that the monitor output is 720p, whereas just about all LCD monitors available now will accept 1920 x 1080p, although they may not actually display it. Given that stunningly good, true 1920 x 1080 pixel, large screen LCD panels are now available, and the prices are in free-fall, it seems insane to only have 720p Monitor output.


Actually, if you would read, you'd know that the HDMI is 720P and there are dual link HD-SDI connections for full, uncompressed 1080P 4:4:4 output. That may not be RAW output like from the Viper, but still darn good.

Use the search feature at reduser, you can find out all sorts of information.

Matthew
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#8 jan von krogh

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 03:52 PM

Carl Brighton is wrong.
In the current design, 1080 4:4:4 and 1080 4:2:2 are available via HD-SDI. 720 via HDMI.

Sorry, I'm still none the wiser. Does that mean you can take live SDI or HDMI from the camera already downsampled to 1080 and feed that either into an existing recording/editing setup, or go straight to air as 1080 HD?

this diagram shows the current interconnections.
http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=1110

And if it is available "live", are there any specs available on what the processing delay is? It might be in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Its live. However fully possible that it has one or two frames delay im my humble opinion.
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 04:03 PM

Its live. However fully possible that it has one or two frames delay im my humble opinion.


Hi Jan,

I think thats probably correct, that delay could be 'interesting' when operating.

Stephen
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#10 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 04:32 PM

Current RED outputs:

1080 4:4:4 and 1080 4:2:2 -> HD-SDI.
720p -> HDMI.
720p of 4.5k overscan -> Viewfinder/LCD
4k RAW @ 1-60fps -> RAW Port -> External RAID
4k RAW @ 1-24fps -> eSata -> RED Drive, RED RAM
4k RAW @ 1-24fps -> CF Module -> CF Cards

2k RAW Cropped (16mm) @ 1-100 fps -> eSata/CF Module -> RED Drive, RED RAM, CF Cards
2k RAW Cropped (16mm) @ 1-120 fps -> RAW Port -> External RAID

Currently under research for future firmware releases. One or many options depending on feasibility of hardware and customer preference will be available in the future (see massive ensueing debate on REDUser):

2k RAW Scaled full 35mm frame @ 1-60 FPS -> eSata/CF Module -> RED Drive, RED RAM, CF Cards
1080 RGB Full Sensor (35mm) @ 1-60 Fps -> eSata/CF module -> RED Drive, RED RAM, CF Cards
720 RGB Cropped (16mm) @ 1-120 Fps -> eSata/CF Module -> RED Drive, RED RAM, CF Cards


RED Drive is two 7200 rpm drives offering 300 GB of storage (about 4 hours of 4k RAW footage).
RED RAM is I believe 96 GB of solid state storage.
CF Cards are off the shelf highspeed CF Cards.

You can as mentioned first capture through an HDMI Capture card.
You can also attach any tape capture method you wish through the HD-SDI. (HDCAM, DVCPro... etc.)
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#11 Max Jacoby

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 04:42 PM

What about 25fps? And 30fps? Are they only available on the Raw Port? That's a serious drawback for the Pal world.

But basically any overcranking will require the expensive Raw Port/External Raid option...
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#12 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 04:45 PM

RED seems to be on track for a Late August/Early September release. Jim has continued to insist that the shipping schedule had not shifted.

All 1080p/720p REDCode options were stated as "Available after first cameras begin shipping" last year. So the 1080p/720p debate is more about what features RED will focus on delivering first.
2K Scaled RAW was not thought a viable option until last week so the debate is currently whether 2k Scaled RAW is more useful than 1080 RGB since you could create a 1080 RGB from a 2k RAW image as well as a 2k RGB image.

Also there is some discussion of a 2k RGB option running at 1-60 fps.

What turns out to be done first and what turns out to be technically feasible is yet to be seen.

The great thing about a FPGA is that P-(Programmable) bit which means that unlike a hard coded DSP RED can continue to effectively make changes to the hardware through flash updates.

--------------------------

It *used* to be mentioned that 30 fps 4k RAW was available to RED Drive over eSATA. However... Jannard has stopped talking about it without giving an exact reason last week. (Or at least that's my memory) So I'm not sure what happened to 30 fps 4k RAW in Camera. Maybe they hit a snag.

Edited by Gavin Greenwalt, 05 August 2007 - 04:47 PM.

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#13 jan von krogh

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:18 PM

Hi Jan,

I think thats probably correct, that delay could be 'interesting' when operating.

Stephen


any delay on hd-sdi out is pure speculation on my part.
I wouldn´t be surprised, however, as many digital cinematography cameras show this behaviour.

some sdti basing systems even have 3 frames delay.
also, more and more 1080p -monitors-, especially lcd, also delay the image.

we often shoot "cinerama-style" with several cameras, just recently a ballet with 5760*1080.
in such scenarios, and any live -environment, its important to know the inherit delays of the specific camera in use.
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#14 jan von krogh

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:34 PM

What about 25fps? And 30fps? Are they only available on the Raw Port?

For your information, Mr. Jacoby, when we ordered the camera, -all- 4k was only to the raw port. All overcranking as well.
4k to Compact Flash was announced by RED much later, IBC2006, iirc.
We, and all of the first 1000 buyers, had to plan 4K via rawport originally.

But basically any overcranking will require the expensive Raw Port/External Raid option...

You are wrong.
2K @ 1-100 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive is in the camera.
Up from 60fps in the announced features when we ordered.

That's a serious drawback for the Pal world.

Yes, 4K 25fps to compact Flash or RED Drive in the body would be very helpful for non-cinema-projects.
RED isn´t sure if they will deliver this in their first camera.
However, Mr. Jannard stated:
- "We will try to make 4K REDCODE RAW @ 25 fps to CF and RED Drive live as soon as possible."
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#15 Gary McClurg

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 11:15 PM

Jan,

What is your day job... camera department, producer....
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#16 Max Jacoby

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 03:10 AM

You are wrong.
2K @ 1-100 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive is in the camera.

Wow great...

If I shoot 4K, I would want all the framerates to be 4K. If any overcranking results in merely a 2K image then that is not going to match too well is it? Especially if that is only 2K windowed (as opposed to downrezzed from 4K), so my 35mm lenses will suddenly not be wide enough and I might have to get in additional lenses designed specifically for Super 16mm.
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#17 Max Jacoby

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 03:11 AM

Jan,

What is your day job... camera department, producer....

Red marketing ;)
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#18 jan von krogh

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 03:21 AM

Jan,

What is your day job... camera department, producer....

As listed in my profile:
mainly production, and outside of our own production, we rent out.
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#19 jan von krogh

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 04:16 AM

Wow great...
If I shoot 4K, I would want all the framerates to be 4K.

In that case you have to go with phantom or a red, using the rawport for 60fps 4k.
We probably won´t order the raw-port in the batch of the first red cameras.

However, what about Arri D20? Panavision Genesis? GV Viper? Sony F23/950/900/750?
They all don´t do 4k at all. No longer good enough?

If any overcranking results in merely a 2K image then that is not going to match too well is it?

The same camera electronics with the same sensor and the same pipeline should shoot images of pretty similar characteristics.
However, that remains to be seen and tested.

Furthermore - Don´t take it as granted, that all masters will be done in 4k , even when the red camera records the originals in 4k.
We for sure have planned several 4k->2k.

I am curious if Soderbergh and Bekmambetov will upgrade their REDs to overcranking while shooting Guerillia and Wanted.

Especially if that is only 2K windowed (as opposed to downrezzed from 4K), so my 35mm lenses will suddenly not be wide enough and I might have to get in additional lenses designed specifically for Super 16mm.

For 0.x-60fps one uses RED in S35mm mode. From 60-100fps, its S16mm.
Good business for our Zeiss S16 1.2/1.3 primes, btw., if one doesn´t have 35mm lenses wide enough and wants to go 60-100fps handheld/steady.
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#20 jan von krogh

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 04:29 AM

Red marketing ;)


But basically any overcranking will require the expensive Raw Port/External Raid option...

Mr Jacoby,
if you post wrong information, as the one regarding overcranking above, in a public forum, i think it makes sense to correct you.

You may call that whatever you want, but as long posters here write false things, as there would be no 1080 out, or you would need the raw port for overcranking, i will correct these false facts.
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