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digitalising film / hdvideo 25fps


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#1 rafael ludescher

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 12:26 PM

hello,

i wanted to ask about digitalising the film via screening it on screen (as im working in a cinema) and recording it with a HD camera,

the problem i have got is that the projector in the cinema runs with 24frames but (as i know) the HDcameras run only on 25frames (as im from austria)

i thought that if my 16mm camera runs on 25 frames, i project on 24 frames and record again on 25 frames it shouldnt make any speed difference, but i heard that the difference between 25 and 24 is to small so i should have the picture flickering...

does anybody know if it would make this problem, and if how could i prevent it ?

thank you
gr.rF

ps.: i dont owe a 16mm camera yet, and i never had one before, im quite "thrown into the cold water" and its hard for me to solve SO MANY questions just by reading..
so if anyone has different tipps or tricks beside this question i would be really happy !
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#2 David Auner aac

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 12:45 PM

i thought that if my 16mm camera runs on 25 frames, i project on 24 frames and record again on 25 frames it shouldnt make any speed difference, but i heard that the difference between 25 and 24 is to small so i should have the picture flickering...


Most projectors here will also project at 25fps since this the standard speed for European films. So you should have a problem there. But filming a projection with video isn't going to be very high quality. The folks at Listo here in Vienna do a great job scanning 16mm and recording to a tape format of your choice.

Cheers, Dave
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#3 rafael ludescher

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 01:04 PM

Most projectors here will also project at 25fps since this the standard speed for European films. So you should have a problem there. But filming a projection with video isn't going to be very high quality. The folks at Listo here in Vienna do a great job scanning 16mm and recording to a tape format of your choice.

Cheers, Dave


no, our 16mm projector runs on 24 frames, im 100 percent sure, the only thing is that this is also the only reason for me to step over to 16mm because the filmstocks and development is already far enough money for me to spend, i guess the colors shouldnt change that much, and i heard that also a lot of companies around vienna do the "scanning" just like projecting and filming... so i figgured out i could do that on my own...

how much would it cost about at listo ?
and do you know anything about jonas film ?

thank you (again)
gr.rF
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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 03:46 PM

Hi,

I've seen conversion kits for projectors to run at 25; it's usually one or more toothed belts and the pulleys they ride on, but I've never seen one that'll go at the flick of a switch.

Phil
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#5 rafael ludescher

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 03:53 PM

Hi,

I've seen conversion kits for projectors to run at 25; it's usually one or more toothed belts and the pulleys they ride on, but I've never seen one that'll go at the flick of a switch.

Phil


sh**, so it could really get a problem for me :/
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#6 David Auner aac

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 04:01 PM

I've seen conversion kits for projectors to run at 25; it's usually one or more toothed belts and the pulleys they ride on, but I've never seen one that'll go at the flick of a switch.


Strange, I was pretty sure the one I had could, but maybe that's because it a silent projector. Can't check right now as it's not here, but will do next week.

Cheers, Dave
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 06:48 PM

I'd happily believe they exist, I've just never come across one.

Phil
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#8 Sam Wells

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 11:18 PM

I think most if not all Kinotons can run at 25 fps

-Sam
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#9 rafael ludescher

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 04:26 AM

I think most if not all Kinotons can run at 25 fps

-Sam


weird, but i will check it today again...

anyway you think it would be a problem (flickering) to film it ? 25-24-25 ?
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#10 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 09:29 PM

anyway you think it would be a problem (flickering) to film it ? 25-24-25 ?

yep!
the camera or the projector may not be quite on the same speed, and so you will get a "morie" like brightening and darkening. Also you have no control over shutter overlap. the projector probaly shows each frame twice or three times. the video camera may interpret that as light and dark bars!

do you want to risk your negative in a projector?

I am not sure of european HDTV standrds, but Northe american video was traditionaly 59.9 Fields.second and not 60 since 1954 and the start of NTSC colour. showing film in North america on televison requires a special effect called a 3:2 Pulldown, and at that is is probaly actually a touch slow.
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#11 rafael ludescher

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 04:10 AM

do you want to risk your negative in a projector?

I am not sure of european HDTV standrds, but Northe american video was traditionaly 59.9 Fields.second and not 60 since 1954 and the start of NTSC colour. showing film in North america on televison requires a special effect called a 3:2 Pulldown, and at that is is probaly actually a touch slow.


why do you mean "risk your negative" ? also if its a proffessional projector?

i dont know anything about HD, i just tried to get some information on wikipedia.. but its to hard, i dont even know what i have to look at :)

but i guess i will need to check, either to put up the framerate of the projector on 25, or to set down the framerate of the cameras on 24...
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#12 David Auner aac

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 04:30 AM

I am not sure of european HDTV standrds, but Northe american video was traditionaly 59.9 Fields.second and not 60 since 1954 and the start of NTSC colour. showing film in North america on televison requires a special effect called a 3:2 Pulldown, and at that is is probaly actually a touch slow.


Nope. No such problem here. Our TV standard was PAL ever since the introduction of TV. PAL was 25fps and 50 fields, 625 lines, no thrills. HDTV is the same here. So the dreaded 3:2 pulldown and other oddities of NTSC (e.g. 29.97 fps or drop-frame time codes) are but jokes among video people. I'm sure you know that NTSC stands for Never The Same Color! :D

Actually, IIRC, most European motion pictures were shot at 25fps as well. And even if they weren't, it's easy to telecine at 24 and play it back at 25. The only thing you'll notice is that movies are 4% shorter here and pitch is 4% higher. But you'd need to have perfect pitch to hear that anyways.

Cheers, Dave
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#13 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 10:00 PM

I'm sure you know that NTSC stands for Never The Same Color! :D

I do recall someone saying that the two european systems were "Pay for additional luxury" and "system essentally contrary to the American Mehod" but then again that may be a rumor :)
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#14 Pete Von Tews

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 12:16 AM

If you use the HVX 200 as the camera, you can set it to record in 24 FPS (vs the standard 25 in Europe) You just won't get sound.
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#15 rafael ludescher

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 12:41 PM

If you use the HVX 200 as the camera, you can set it to record in 24 FPS (vs the standard 25 in Europe) You just won't get sound.



ah thats a good tipp, thank you! i will check it out !
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#16 jan von krogh

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 10:47 AM

ah thats a good tipp, thank you! i will check it out !


You can also try, when using sony hdcam, the ecs/clearscan feature.
its designed to record screens/tubes without flicker, and i am not sure if it goes down to 24 and never tested it, however, its worth a try.

ps
iirc you find that in ->top menu->operation->shutter->ecs (turn on), then toggle shutterspeed to ecs on the front of the camera.
have no cameras to check it out right now, all rented out, but it would be interesting to know if that works.
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#17 Robert Hughes

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 09:56 AM

Raphael, let's review your project proposal. Any off-the-screen style film chain will be inferior to a decent telecine; it doesn't really matter if you use a RED, HDCam or a cell phone cam as your capture device.

Is the film you intend to transfer reversal or negative? Negative should never be run through any general purpose projector as it is a much softer base than reversal or print stock and will be irreversably scratched. Camera original should never be run through a projector (unless it's disposable footage) as the film will suffer some degradation with each pass.

At this stage in your learning you'd probably be better off taking the film to a not-very-expensive PAL SD transfer house and not worry about HD.

Edited by Robert Hughes, 14 August 2007 - 09:58 AM.

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