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Is the Misterium Sensor an AltaSens CMOS?


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#1 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 09:44 AM

Looking at the images published yesterday on RedUser and comparing those to the ones of the SI-2K camera (which has an AltaSens CMOS) they look pretty much the same to me.

So the question is:

Is the Misterium Sensor an AltaSens CMOS?

Is a Mystery to be resolved....

Thanks,
Cesar Rubio.
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#2 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 09:45 AM

Looking at the images published yesterday on RedUser and comparing those to the ones of the SI-2K camera (which has an AltaSens CMOS) they look pretty much the same to me.

So the question is:

Is the Misterium Sensor an AltaSens CMOS?

Is a Mystery to be resolved....

Thanks,
Cesar Rubio.



PD.

This is the AltaSens website:

http://www.altasens.com/
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#3 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 04:10 PM

No it's not. Jim has been clear that the sensor is unique to the RED. We don't know what it is. But whatever it is, it's not available through in any other means.
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#4 Max Jacoby

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 04:44 PM

I don't see how that argument would preclude it from being from Altasens. It has to come from somewhere. All Jannard is saying that he has an exclusive deal with a chip manufacturer, so it could be Altasens or someone else. Although I'd guess it not from Dalsa ;)
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#5 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 05:30 PM

It certainly isn't a CCD; it must by nature of the claimed performance have an awful lot of binning regions and consequently lots of output amplifiers, and that would require CMOS-style semiconductor technology.

My supposition is that it is CMOS, but they're choosing to call it something else for commercial reasons.

Phil
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#6 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 05:52 PM

You're right it could be an altasens manufactured/designed product however it's not the same design as used in the SI-2K camera. It's just like how both the Cell and PowerPC chips are manufactured in the same plant but completely different architectures.
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#7 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:11 PM

It certainly isn't a CCD; it must by nature of the claimed performance have an awful lot of binning regions and consequently lots of output amplifiers, and that would require CMOS-style semiconductor technology.

My supposition is that it is CMOS, but they're choosing to call it something else for commercial reasons.

Phil



huh? it's been stated about a trillion times now that its a cmos sensor.

http://www.red.com/technology

R.
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#8 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:37 PM

Yes it's CMOS. We've always said it's CMOS. It's also RED Proprietary.
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#9 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:42 PM

So just exactly how many output amps do you have on that thing, and what's the range of shading correction you're having to do?

Phil "Not Expecting An Answer" Rhodes
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#10 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:45 PM

You seem to delight in asking questions you know you won't get answered, so to delight you further, this one won't get answered either.
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#11 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 07:36 PM

What I delight in is revealing just how jealously people are prepared to guard unexceptional things. The barrier to creating competing technology is not a broadest-possible-terms overview of your design approach, as I suspect you know.

What's interesting is not whether the answer is a few dozen or a few hundred; what's interesting is the technical compromises attendant each, and how you have overcome them. That's where the opportunity for original and interesting work lies.

Phil
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#12 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 07:40 PM

Sure it's interesting, but only if you're you're working on the design and electronics of the camera. And it's not so much as guarding unexceptional things, but guarding "everything" in a certain area incase anything accidentally slips out that you or I might not think important, but someone else does.
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#13 Mitch Gross

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 08:14 PM

The chip is not from Altasens. I know who manufactured it. If RED won't say then I certainly won't. I have a sense of what theydid and did not do in the design, and what is impressive is not just the pixels count or the sensitivity to noise floor level, but the fact that they can drive it as they do without thermal failure. That's the big engineering feat, and apparently they've pulled it off.
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#14 Gary McClurg

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 08:15 PM

Some have thought it;s made by Kodak...

Let me state for the record I do not and I really don't care... just as long as the camera works that is all I've ever cared about...
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#15 Adamo P Cultraro

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 11:27 PM

While I don't care about the details, someone does and it's only a matter of time until someone buys one and reverse engineers it.

What pisses me off is the whole 007 part of the marketing campaign. No pics on the website even after the camera is released. Hush hush about every facet of the device. I live 10 minutes from where RED is based - and I doubt if I could just "drop in and have a look" at the cam. It really is irritating. Talk of NDAs left and right.

Couple that with a forum of zealots and ass kissing Jannard sycophants, and the whole project is really nauseating.

Oddly enough, I still want one and am planning to purchase one. The chances are 100% I will own one as I have the wherewithal to do so tomorrow if the opportunity arose. Just show me the damn camera - so tired of looking at spec sheets, hype, and speculation.
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#16 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 01:11 AM

While I don't care about the details, someone does and it's only a matter of time until someone buys one and reverse engineers it.

What pisses me off is the whole 007 part of the marketing campaign. No pics on the website even after the camera is released. Hush hush about every facet of the device. I live 10 minutes from where RED is based - and I doubt if I could just "drop in and have a look" at the cam. It really is irritating. Talk of NDAs left and right.

Couple that with a forum of zealots and ass kissing Jannard sycophants, and the whole project is really nauseating.

Oddly enough, I still want one and am planning to purchase one. The chances are 100% I will own one as I have the wherewithal to do so tomorrow if the opportunity arose. Just show me the damn camera - so tired of looking at spec sheets, hype, and speculation.


I'm really confused... what is it that you want to know? Beyond sensor design specifics... which are always assumed to be under NDA. (try asking Canon for the white papers on their CMOS and DSP architecture specifics). Hush hush? Ask Evin or any one of the other 24 first delivery receipients if there is some mysterious Cold War secret angle you want photographed.

Here's a brilliant approach. If there is something you want to know. Ask! If you want to drop by and possibly see the camera... Ask! They might not have any cameras anymore to show since they seem to have sold off the first batch.

Or you could go to IBC. I know you can take a gander there. Or you could have gone to NAB and taken a gander there. Or you could try to rent one... I'm pretty sure an LA rental house was in the first 25. Hmmm what other ways are there to get your hands on one... well I'll leave that to your imagination. But I know that sitting around whining like a little ... perfectly nice fellow... is not one of them.
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#17 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 02:55 AM

> Couple that with a forum of zealots and ass kissing Jannard sycophants, and the whole project is really nauseating.

Couldn't agree more.

I will probably never get within a hundred miles of one of these cameras anyway. They've made it difficult enough to find out whether they're really any damned good. But to be honest, the whole thing just leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth - like no other piece of simple technology I've ever seen before, it's wrapped up in such a thick layer of hype, bullshit and sycophantism I really don't want to be associated with it.

Phil
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#18 Andrew Stroud

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 03:16 AM

> Couple that with a forum of zealots and ass kissing Jannard sycophants, and the whole project is really nauseating.

Couldn't agree more.

I will probably never get within a hundred miles of one of these cameras anyway. They've made it difficult enough to find out whether they're really any damned good. But to be honest, the whole thing just leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth - like no other piece of simple technology I've ever seen before, it's wrapped up in such a thick layer of hype, bullshit and sycophantism I really don't want to be associated with it.

Phil


And to quote your enthusiastic post on CML today :

"Great, cool, where can I rent one, what does it cost?"
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#19 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 03:23 AM

Oh for christ's sake....

I can't get one. I can't rent one. This is the point I was trying to make.

Phil
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#20 Andrew Stroud

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 04:01 AM

Oh for christ's sake....

I can't get one. I can't rent one. This is the point I was trying to make.

Phil


Don't be associated with it then. Stop submitting to the RED forum.
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