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RED ONE and Compositing?


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#1 Kristoffer Newsom

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 03:30 PM

I find that often the true test of a camera is not how great the footage looks - that's usually the great test of a cinematographer. For me, it's more about selective color correction and compositing that reveal the truth about a camera's functionality and practical application.

I've seen lots of incredible footage from the Red One... But not a single bloomin' FX shot. Has anyone had any experience trying to push the envelope so to speak with footage aquired on a Red? Any blue/greenscreen? any selective color saturation/desaturation?

Thanks.
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#2 Paul Nordin

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 03:58 PM

I've seen lots of incredible footage from the Red One... But not a single bloomin' FX shot. Has anyone had any experience trying to push the envelope so to speak with footage aquired on a Red? Any blue/greenscreen? any selective color saturation/desaturation?


I've noticed that lack too. I'm going to be testing camera #103 when it ships at the end of Oct, and that will be a big part of the evaluation. Although I looked at some test footage from unit #23 at a gathering yesterday and zoomed in the edges looked amazingly sharp. So I anticipate it handling chromakeys quite well. If noone has posted such tests before then, I'll be happy to do so when I am able.
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 04:07 PM

I've noticed that lack too. I'm going to be testing camera #103 when it ships at the end of Oct, and that will be a big part of the evaluation. Although I looked at some test footage from unit #23 at a gathering yesterday and zoomed in the edges looked amazingly sharp. So I anticipate it handling chromakeys quite well. If noone has posted such tests before then, I'll be happy to do so when I am able.


Hi Paul,

Dave Stump shot some material on an early prototype that looked good.

The files can be found @ CML

Stephen
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#4 Paul Nordin

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 04:13 PM

Hi Paul,

Dave Stump shot some material on an early prototype that looked good.

The files can be found @ CML

Stephen

Thanks Stephen. I remember those tests, though it would be good to see something from the current generation of chip/electronics/software/etc. A lot has changed since the Stump tests. Although I suspect all those changes have only made things better.
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#5 Kristoffer Newsom

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 04:25 PM

....CML?
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#6 Tim Terner

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 09:42 PM

....CML?


http://www.cinematography.net/
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#7 Will Earl

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 06:00 AM

Have you seen Crossing The Line? It doesn't have any greenscreen composite work but it does have a few visual effects shots.
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#8 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 05:10 PM

I'll see if I can't get some greenscreen stage time at Seattle Grip and Light in the next 2 weeks. Billy Summers has graciously agreed to play around for a day and shoot some stuff... as soon as we figure out what to shoot.
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#9 John Sprung

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:32 PM

Any blue/greenscreen?

The important thing on such tests is that they use 4:4:4 rather than 4:2:2.



-- J.S.
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#10 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 05:02 PM

I did do a quick sky replacement on one of the off hollywood shots.

I didn't spend much time on it. But I also can't I say I was terribly pleased. The wavelet compression was chewing up the edges of the blue channel and noticeably softening them.

I also discovered that the RED codec is using a two tile system which resulted in a shift in a notable SNR shift. That threw the keyer for a bit of a loop and created a discontinuous edge.


Posted Image
Posted Image

Posted Image

Jim Jannard and Graeme both acknowledged it was a problem they were working on and thought they had already fixed. I hope so because while the upper tile was pretty crisp the lower tile (with the most difficult detail in the grass was the one that got smudgy).
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#11 John Sprung

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 01:18 PM

Try it with green rather than blue -- especially on a Bayer system that should work better.



-- J.S.
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#12 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 09:19 AM

AFAIK Red is used only for VFX shots on Wanted.

But none of us have seen those shots yet.

Should be a rather thorough test, though.

http://www.popoholic...a-jolie-wanted/
http://wantedmovie.net/

Gunleik
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#13 Kristoffer Newsom

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:12 PM

I'm inclined to think that if the blue channel was that chewed up and soft, the green channel will be much the same.

Having second thoughts now on the staying power of the Red One as a high end production tool - with noisy color channels, that really limits what one can do with the footage in post production, and today's filmmaking process is HIGHLY dependent on flexibility in post.
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#14 John Sprung

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:08 PM

Even if wavelet compression turns out to be absolutely fatal to pulling keys, you could just bring on a Dalsa for the green/blue screen shots -- much as we use VistaVision for film effects. The stuff that replaces the green or blue could be Red -- shot on a Red, that is. ;-)

There's a whole lot of film making and TV that doesn't require compositing, so Red still looks to me like it has a killer price/performance point.



-- J.S.
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#15 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:16 PM

> Jim Jannard and Graeme both acknowledged it was a problem they were working on and thought they had already fixed.

It's amazing how often that's the response to a question someone asked a long time ago - like this one.

Phil
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Opal

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