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From Kodak- something new?!?


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#1 Adam Thompson

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 07:59 PM

Uhh, I just got this weird (but pretty cool) email from Kodak about something new that is coming. It had no data other than it was something new and I'd hear about it soon.

Anyone know what's going on? Vision 3 maybe :o ?? Something to compete with the new Vivid 160 stock? 800 or 1000ASA??

Anyone have a hint for me to digest?!?
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#2 A. Whitehouse

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 08:16 PM

I don't know if Kodak would bother developing a 'Look' stock like the vivid. I don't know if its too early for a Vision 3 line. At a guess I would imagine its an update to their "look management" system or perhaps an expansion of the expression range?
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 09:29 PM

Only rumor I've heard of is a finer-grained replacement for 5218 Vision-2 500T.
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#4 Adam Thompson

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 11:28 PM

Sorry, it actually says "Another champion is about to enter the ring"... "Sign up to be the first to know." And there is a pretty cool looking pic of a boxer sitting in a locker room lit with overhead kinos. A finer 500T would be really cool for 16mm, but what do you do if you want a little grain in your 35mm shots in the future? I guess pushing stocks will get more popular for some projects that still want it.

With a finer 500T I wonder if it'd make some noticable difference in the end when rating it at 1000asa, compared to current stock? I was just reading, and I can't recall where right now, but someone was talking about having to use Eterna 500 at 1000asa on a feature and being pleased with the results.

Anyway, it's exciting news I think.
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#5 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 11:43 PM

Hmm, a rumour heard by you, David, will have more credibility than many others factual statements ;) .

Hence, should indeed a tighter-grained replacement for 7218/5218 show up soon, then that would be excellent news above all for those filming on Super 8, as 7217 and 7218 really changed the way people can work cinematically with that format.

We shall see and anxiously await news...

Edited by Michael Lehnert, 07 October 2007 - 11:44 PM.

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#6 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 10:23 AM

what do you do if you want a little grain in your 35mm shots in the future?


You add it digitally :D

Seriously though, I don't get this whole "war" against grain. I'm no cinematographer, so I should be the last one to comment on this, but it seems like Kodak is trying to compete with digital grain-free acquisition by reducing grain in its products. Maybe things are much more complicated than that, maybe I just don't get it, but I've never disliked a movie or its cinematography just because it was a little grainy..
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 10:31 AM

Increasing speed and/or reducing grain have always been the primary goals in developing new movie stocks, followed by improving sharpness, color accuracy, consistency, latitude, etc.

It's only recently with the introduction of digital cinematography that some people have started to "miss" graininess, sort of a backlash against digital.

But honestly, if Kodak & Fuji doesn't work on increasing speed and/or reducing grain, eventually more people will shoot digital for night exterior scenes; it will start to be seen as film's "backwardness" if it doesn't keep improving.

As for exposure latitude, some people think color neg already has gone far enough -- stocks have gotten so low-con that you need a D.I. just to goose them up again.

The other issue is whether to assume that the majority of all color neg stock shot will go through a D.I. or telecine transfer and therefore optimize the stock for that post scenario, eventually get rid of the color mask, make them very low in contrast, maybe even just make them halfway between 3200K and 5500K in balance.

But it's true that some people don't like the fact that modern film is so fine-grained. I keep asking Fuji to improve their Reala 500D, which is soft & grainy, but they say that cinematographers like Kaminski keep telling them to leave at least one grainy stock in their catalog.

Personally, I'd rather they develop a 1000T stock rather than leave the 500T stocks grainy.

In general, I like clean fine-grained images, which is one reason I like the 35mm anamorphic format and 65mm.
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#8 Max Jacoby

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 10:35 AM

Seriously though, I don't get this whole "war" against grain. I'm no cinematographer, so I should be the last one to comment on this, but it seems like Kodak is trying to compete with digital grain-free acquisition by reducing grain in its products. Maybe things are much more complicated than that, maybe I just don't get it, but I've never disliked a movie or its cinematography just because it was a little grainy..

I'm of that opinion too. On one hand I understand that Kodak is improving their stocks, so from a puerely technical point of view this means reducing the grain and increasing the latitude, but on the other hand I do think that these new stocks seem to lack a bit in character.

It's the same discussions I've been having with Arri about the Master Primes too. These lenses just don't flare! Filmmaking is not just about being technically correct, but about getting the right feel, which in some cases means grain, flares, etc...

Oh well, at least they leave their lovely black & white stocks alone.
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#9 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 11:05 AM

It's only recently with the introduction of digital cinematography that some people have started to "miss" graininess, sort of a backlash against digital.[...]
In general, I like clean fine-grained images, which is one reason I like the 35mm anamorphic format and 65mm.


David, I don't hate digital acquisition and I have nothing against fine-grained images. I love anamorphic more than everything, and I can see why Kodak is working to improve their products. What I don't understand is why ALL their products (except their B/W stock) should move towards a grain-free future, thus giving less options to cinematographers and filmmakers.
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#10 John Holland

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 11:16 AM

This is not new they have been running scared of 1st all types of video for years and now HD 2k 4k and the whatever , so thye have managed to make their stocks look like video even worse when the end product has gone via DI.
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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 11:52 AM

Maybe they should sweep the slate clean and come up with two D.I. stocks, slow and fast, optimized for scanning -- very low in contrast, color-balanced halfway between 3200K and 5500K, no color mask, as grainless as possible, etc.

I know their "HD" stock ('99) is supposed to be like that, but it is too fast & grainy in my opinion for day work and there is no matching slow-speed stock.

Then come up with three high-contrast stocks optimized for printing, closer to the EXR look or the Fuji Vivid look.

Or at least do what Fuji did and release a 200T-ish higher-contrast stock. Or 500T, since that's the most popular speed.
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#12 Sam Wells

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 12:48 PM

They better pull some large rabbits out of their hat soon is all I can say...

-Sam
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 07:14 PM

They better pull some large rabbits out of their hat soon is all I can say...

-Sam


Actually Kodak's big problem is that they make an excellent product that takes great pictures -- trouble is, that's nothing "new" and people seem to think newer is better. So what do you tell Kodak? "Hey, I know you make a fantastic product... but somehow you have to make it twice as fantastic even though it already outperforms any digital competition!"

I don't see how they can "win" when they already have a superior product, except to now sell it for half the price, but then, what about their profitability? How will the fund R&D then?
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#14 Michael Nash

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Posted 08 October 2007 - 07:35 PM

I don't see how they can "win" when they already have a superior product, except to now sell it for half the price, but then, what about their profitability? How will the fund R&D then?


They just have to come out with a product called "New Kodak" and rename Vision 2 "Kodak Classic." When everyone hates the new stuff and the Classic outsells the new, they'll scrap the line and return to just "Vision 2."

Maybe some of the readers here are to young to catch the reference... :P
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#15 Patrick Neary

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 06:49 AM

I don't see how they can "win" when they already have a superior product, except to now sell it for half the price, but then, what about their profitability? How will the fund R&D then?


double the prices on their print stocks. :)
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#16 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 03:00 PM

They just have to come out with a product called "New Kodak" and rename Vision 2 "Kodak Classic." When everyone hates the new stuff and the Classic outsells the new, they'll scrap the line and return to just "Vision 2."

Maybe some of the readers here are to young to catch the reference... :P

Just remember, the "New Kodak" has to be worse than the "classic" so that people remember what was so great about the classic in the first place.
Crazy marketing move, but it worked for Coke!
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#17 Matthew Buick

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 04:29 PM

I wish Negatives were more like Reversals. Slower and more contrasty.
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#18 Martin Roy

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:28 PM

I don't know if it's secret...
but I've heard that...
the new platform Vision 3 is coming soon...

That person didn't tell any detail but I guess it's based on the same preoccupations as Vision 2... Less grain, more details in high lights/shadows, neutrality, scanning...

On my side, I would love a very low contrast/fast film easy to push-process! Hey I'm from the black and white photography school!

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#19 Jon Kukla

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 09:14 AM

Being as we're this close to Camerimage, I would anticipate that there will be a demo (if not debut) by then (about a month from now). Just my idle speculation.
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#20 Tyler Decker

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 06:20 PM

Yeah it is Vision 3. Here is a link to the demo trailer.

<a href="http://www.kodak.com...olution.jhtml"> http://www.kodak.com...evolution.jhtml </a>
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