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High Contrast b/w stock.. what do you suggest?


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#1 Marc Roessler

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 07:48 PM

Hi,

I'm looking for some very high contrast stock that will get me deep, rich blacks.
B/w reversal is not quite what I'm looking for, this just has low latitude but the blacks
are not as I'd like them to be. Print stock as negative is just too much of the effect...
What do you suggest?

Greetings,
Marc
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 08:25 PM

It doesn't get much more contrasty than b&w reversal -- if you don't think those blacks are black enough, I can't imagine what what would satisfy you, short of hi-con title stock.
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#3 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 01:50 PM

It doesn't get much more contrasty than b&w reversal -- if you don't think those blacks are black enough, I can't imagine what what would satisfy you, short of hi-con title stock.


We get allot of hi-con shot for non-title purposes it's cheap and certainly has great blacks and contrast....

-Rob-
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#4 Sam Wells

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:02 AM

I'm looking for some very high contrast stock that will get me deep, rich blacks.
B/w reversal is not quite what I'm looking for, this just has low latitude but the blacks
are not as I'd like them to be. Print stock as negative is just too much of the effect...
What do you suggest?


The *appearance* of "deep rich blacks" is really not so much a question of camera stock dmax (reversal) or dmin (neg) as your destination format will determine the blacks; but of building contrast into what you shoot via light / lighting.

-Sam
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#5 Dan Salzmann

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:49 AM

I've heard of people using optical sound film Kodak 5369 for image work. Has a very hi-con look, is very inexpensive but is something like 4 ASA so lots of light is required.
Here is some info from Kodak:

http://www.kodak.com...s...6.6.8&lc=en
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#6 Dan Goulder

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 04:31 PM

We get allot of hi-con shot for non-title purposes it's cheap and certainly has great blacks and contrast....

-Rob-

What stock are you currently using for titles?
Thanks.
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#7 Dan Goulder

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 04:35 PM

It doesn't get much more contrasty than b&w reversal -- if you don't think those blacks are black enough, I can't imagine what what would satisfy you, short of hi-con title stock.

Do you know what stock was used for "Paper Moon"? Kodak 5231? (I just saw a great looking HD transfer of this movie.)
Thanks.
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#8 Marc Roessler

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 03:14 PM

Sam true.. but of course this means that you have to light specifially for that effect. With a given light setting,
the way to achieve deep blacks is to choose high contrast stock.. correct?
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#9 Hal Smith

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 04:03 PM

I've heard of people using optical sound film Kodak 5369 for image work. Has a very hi-con look, is very inexpensive but is something like 4 ASA so lots of light is required.
Here is some info from Kodak:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...6.6.8&lc=en


That link must be old, here's the current 5369 link:

http://www.kodak.com...s...12.14&lc=en
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#10 Sam Wells

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 08:32 PM

Sam true.. but of course this means that you have to light specifially for that effect. With a given light setting,
the way to achieve deep blacks is to choose high contrast stock.. correct?


High contrast stock helps but it's how you play highlights against shadow too

-Sam
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#11 Nick Mulder

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 08:56 PM

If you can find it 7374 'television recording film' (not sure if it was available in 35mm) ...

Not sure how much of it is floating around but have a read:

http://www.cinematog...n...764&hl=7374

(and sorry, I want to keep what I have)
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#12 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 09:20 PM

Do you know what stock was used for "Paper Moon"? Kodak 5231? (I just saw a great looking HD transfer of this movie.)
Thanks.


I think I remember seeing a slate from that film with "Double X" written on it, which is 5222. The film was also shot with a red filter on the entire time.
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#13 John Holland

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:59 AM

i am pretty sure red filter only used for ext. shots waste of time on interiors about 2 stops loss of light cant remember exactly , not a lot of blue from tungsten lights.
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:31 PM

I have an old printed transcript of an interview that Kovac and Zsigmond did for AFI. Quoting part of it:

Finally, I arrived at using the reds, the 29, 25, and 23A and the 21 Orange on interiors... what red filters do to the face is they make it very chalky white, so when you cut to an interior and it's normal, it's not going to match well. It would look like a different picture. Also, the contrast ratio does something naturally to the film. I noticed I had to carry through because inside, I'm using tungsten type of light. I believe the 21 Orange does the same thing as red does to the blue, literally translated into values and tones. I couldn't afford to use reds. First of all, the filter factor is so enormous that you can't build up the lighting that much. Double-X is fairly fast and I think the filter factor on a 21 is a stop and a half. From two and a half, you go down to 50 ASA. You still had to build up the lighting...

So my stop was f/16, at night...

The film needed a hard, contrasty look. I always had to build-up the contrast when I didn't have it... Sometimes on some of the exteriors, I had such flat lighting that just purely for that reason, I had to push the film, not because I didn't have enough light. In forced development, the negative picks up enough contrast to bring it back to the same level you've been working at.

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#15 Chris Keth

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:08 PM

From two and a half, you go down to 50 ASA. You still had to build up the lighting...

So my stop was f/16, at night...[/i]


That's some serious power needed. 50 ASA at f16 figures out to 7600-ish footcandles for the key.
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#16 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 01:09 AM

That's some serious power needed. 50 ASA at f16 figures out to 7600-ish footcandles for the key.


Yeah, Ryan O'Neal would complain of the heat...understandably so.
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#17 John Holland

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 11:06 AM

David that is a eye opener to me i must say i have shot a load of double x used red and orange for exteriors depending on the weather over here , if was cloudy as it tends to be most of the time i didnt bother . As for interiors always lit with high key contrasty lighting . almost film noir .
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#18 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 11:11 AM

Yes, I would have thought one could control the whiteness of the faces indoors through exposure and contrast ratios (as "Schindler's List" did), but I suppose there still might be a shift in tonal values if you weren't careful. But I would have probably just gone with a yellow filter to make my life easier (especially if I'm trying to get an f/16 inside all the time on Double-X.)

Was watching "Nixon" last night on DVD, which has some nice b&w work, shot on real b&w negative stocks.
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#19 John Holland

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 11:20 AM

" Nixon" shot by Robert Richardson ? havent seen that since its release , was it anamorphic ? and B+W shot anamorphic or 1.85 ?
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#20 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 01:09 PM

" Nixon" shot by Robert Richardson ? havent seen that since its release , was it anamorphic ? and B+W shot anamorphic or 1.85 ?


It was anamorphic 35mm, including the b&w (except for any 16mm work in there.) Pre-D.I. days...

Can you imagine how much optical printer work was needed to convert the different formats used in "JFK" and "Nixon"?
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