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Red vs. Sony XDCAM EX for Fimout


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#1 John Peters

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 10:50 AM

Tetested the Red vs. preproduction XDCAM EX

Here are the findings, although I am a director, not a director of photography, so excuse the lack of technical expertise.

We tested the EX with a prototype 35 mm adapter that covers the whole 35 mm still camera frame and works with the XDCAM EX Fujinon lens at wide enough focal length, where F-stop was 2.0, however the adapter was sensitive to what kind of lenses it would work with. Only high quality lenses with large output lens produced consistent brightness over the whole frame. I can't tell you enough info on the adapter, because it is still under development and I am under NDA; this is all I am allowed to tell. The setup also included a new high tech prototype follow focus for 35 mm still lenses; I am under NDA here too.


Red vs. XDCAM EX, converted to film, Red shot in Red code:

Red has better lattitude, much better DOF, same low light performance and the same resolution on film, which was burned digitally.


Red Vs. XDCAM EX, converted to film, XDCAM EX footage fed digitally to a computer-type recorder:

Red has a much better DOF


Red vs. XDCAM HD, converted to film, with the 35 mm adapter and follow focus, XDCAM fed digitally to a recorder, fast Canon, Nikon, and Minolta lenses used with the adapter:

XDCM has narrower DOF, focusing ease was similar, due to precision follow focus with digital readout, low light performance was similar due to high aparture lenses used with tha EX.


Red vs. XDCAM recorded to its flash cards, with the 35 mm adapter and FF:

Easier focusing and narrower DOF on XDCAM, Red has a better latitude.


The XDCAM EX has a better horizontal resolution than F900 recorded to tape, vertical resolution is the same

The Red has small flimsy XLR jacks, but the sound is not functional; will be functional in the future, with software update. Red is hard to work with, you need additional technical people to be on the crew.

Red resolution lies between 2K and 4K, but after filmout the resolution increase over the XDCAM was lost, still it is an interesting camera to consider, mainly due to its latitude and DOF advantage.

The adapter and FF should be out around 2008 NAB at a cost of some $5K for the adapter and $1k for the FF. IMHO the competition will probably lose all their sales.

A Sony rep told us that the CMOS in the EX uses the same noise reduction type as their Alpha A700 still camera, and that it has has 2 F-stops advantage over CCD. The low light performance of the EX is amazing, considering it is only a 1/2" chipset.
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#2 John Peters

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:24 AM

The adapter is using some special ground glass which is laser created and creates some micro lenses on it, millions of them, it is supposed to be the most efficient and resolving adapter ever and is going to be produced in large quantities, at least this is what I am allowed to tell.
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#3 Tim Tyler

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:44 AM

John,

There is no useful information in your post. Please tell me why I shouldn't remove it.

Although it can be calculated, depth of field is an aesthetic quality, not a measurement of quality. The same lens will render the same depth of field regardless of the camera it's on as long as the recording surface size is the same (CMOS, CCD, Ground Glass).

Which company did your film-out?

Why are you comparing a prosumer ($5k?) camcorder (1/2" censors, built-in lens) to a full-frame $25k Red?

How did you measure the film resolution?

What did you photograph for your tests?

What lenses did you use on the Red?
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 12:39 PM

...........so excuse the lack of technical expertise.

We tested the EX with a prototype 35 mm adapter that covers the whole 35 mm still camera frame and works with the XDCAM EX Fujinon lens at wide enough focal length,


He John,

Wow Vista Vision frame more than twice the size of Red's sensor. The focusing would be easier with Red

FWIW doing a film out from any camera using a 35mm adapter will look very soft V a Viper with Digiprimes or 35mm film camera.

Out of interest what was the serial no of the Red camera you used and which firmware version was installed.

You have not posted here much before and now your an expert under NDA's from Sony or are you just a Sony rep?

Stephen
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#5 Dan Goulder

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 02:17 PM

Red has a much better DOF

That's not necessarily a positive attribute.
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#6 Seung Han

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 01:23 AM

Tetested the Red vs. preproduction XDCAM EX

Here are the findings, although I am a director, not a director of photography, so excuse the lack of technical expertise.

We tested the EX with a prototype 35 mm adapter that covers the whole 35 mm still camera frame and works with the XDCAM EX Fujinon lens at wide enough focal length, where F-stop was 2.0, however the adapter was sensitive to what kind of lenses it would work with. Only high quality lenses with large output lens produced consistent brightness over the whole frame. I can't tell you enough info on the adapter, because it is still under development and I am under NDA; this is all I am allowed to tell. The setup also included a new high tech prototype follow focus for 35 mm still lenses; I am under NDA here too.


Red vs. XDCAM EX, converted to film, Red shot in Red code:

Red has better lattitude, much better DOF, same low light performance and the same resolution on film, which was burned digitally.


Red Vs. XDCAM EX, converted to film, XDCAM EX footage fed digitally to a computer-type recorder:

Red has a much better DOF


Red vs. XDCAM HD, converted to film, with the 35 mm adapter and follow focus, XDCAM fed digitally to a recorder, fast Canon, Nikon, and Minolta lenses used with the adapter:

XDCM has narrower DOF, focusing ease was similar, due to precision follow focus with digital readout, low light performance was similar due to high aparture lenses used with tha EX.


Red vs. XDCAM recorded to its flash cards, with the 35 mm adapter and FF:

Easier focusing and narrower DOF on XDCAM, Red has a better latitude.


The XDCAM EX has a better horizontal resolution than F900 recorded to tape, vertical resolution is the same

The Red has small flimsy XLR jacks, but the sound is not functional; will be functional in the future, with software update. Red is hard to work with, you need additional technical people to be on the crew.

Red resolution lies between 2K and 4K, but after filmout the resolution increase over the XDCAM was lost, still it is an interesting camera to consider, mainly due to its latitude and DOF advantage.

The adapter and FF should be out around 2008 NAB at a cost of some $5K for the adapter and $1k for the FF. IMHO the competition will probably lose all their sales.

A Sony rep told us that the CMOS in the EX uses the same noise reduction type as their Alpha A700 still camera, and that it has has 2 F-stops advantage over CCD. The low light performance of the EX is amazing, considering it is only a 1/2" chipset.


So, basically, Red is the better camera that will cost you more.

Thanks for your hard effort and clearing that up... :lol:
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#7 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 03:31 AM

Apples to bananas.
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#8 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 03:56 AM

"XDCAM EX footage fed digitally to a computer-type recorder:"


Is that really the most eloquent and technically savvy way you're able to state that?

Besides, comparing the XDCAM to Red is a very pointless exercise. You could have compared the Red camera to a Hi8 camera, and this post wouldn't have been any more or less imporant.

Let's throw this topic away, shall we?
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