Jump to content


Photo

Canon 1014 XL-S plus Ektachrome 64T


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Alan Brown

Alan Brown
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts
  • Student
  • London

Posted 13 October 2007 - 02:29 PM

I'm currently a film school student (who has shot mostly video) and I've just purchased a Canon 1014XL-S and a cartridge of Ektachrome 64T (I have negative stock on order from Pro8mm) to learn more about film and latitiude. I'm intending to shoot the 64T outdoors. Thing is, I'm not sure how to set the Canon up to shoot this film. I've tried to research this but have gotten conflicting information. I've heard that the 64T cartridge doesn't engage the Canon's 85 filter when inserted (at this point I wouldn't know how to switch the filter on or off), and I've also been told the 85 filter would be of no use anyway as 64T requires an 85B.

Can anyone tell me how to set up the camera to shoot 64T outdoors?

Much appreciated
  • 0

#2 Giles Perkins

Giles Perkins
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts

Posted 13 October 2007 - 03:55 PM

It's a matter of preference - some will just shoot and set the camera to the daylight setting without any other external filter - some prefer to use just an external filter and shoot it as tungsten (indoor setting) - with the filter warming the image.

See - http://onsuper8.blog...-to-filter.html

Hope it helps rather than confuses!

Why not shoot some with, some without and see what you prefer?
  • 0

#3 Michael Lehnert

Michael Lehnert
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1086 posts
  • Other
  • London, UK / Basel, CH

Posted 14 October 2007 - 12:47 AM

Welcome to Super 8 and cinematography.com, Alan. Alot is repetitive stuff that you already know, but just to give a comprehensive review for others while I am typing...

As a simple professional rule (outside of filtering fx experiments):

- Tungsten (indoor / T) colour film requires an amber-coloured Wratten 85 filter when used outdoors.
- Daylight (outdoor / D) colour film requires a blue-coloured Wratten 80 filter when used indoors.

All Super 8 cameras are constructed on the default assumption that the used film stock is tungsten-balanced. Hence, all Super 8 cameras feature a built-in Wratten 85 filter. The better the cameras, the better the optical quality of the gelatine or optical glass filters. Likewise, the worse the camera, the worse the used plastic shrapnel of coloured something in the optical path.

Your Canon 1014XL-S is rightly regarded as a top-gear camera, with an equally good-quality built-in Wratten 85 filter. There is therefore no real reason not to use the built-in filter, especially when it has received a CLA job (cleaned, lub'd, adjusted) which you should give it as a house-warming present: trust me, it will thank you with a quantum leap in better cinematic quality.

As you know from your Canon 1014 XL-S user manual, the filter is operated via the filter switch on the right-hand side of the camera body, above the exposure compensation dial next to the handgrip. Operating the switch (while pressing the filter switch lock button above) so that the 'Sun' symbol is visible means that the Wratten 85 filter is in the optical path, allowing using T film in the great outdoors. When the 'bulb' symbol is visible, the filter is not set, so that T film can be used indoors.

Some Super 8 cartridges, notably everything from Pro8mm (beware of potential problems as there are rumours flying around about unprofessional business practices surrounding this company - search this forum for details) do not feature the Filter Notch on the cartridge that enables the camera to operate the filter switch as it is supposed to be. The lack of a Filter Notch (which is the one on the lower front side) means that camera filter switchgear may be inoperable.
You can very simply add a Filter Notch by using a pincer or similar generic tool. Please refer to this excellent website to learn about the position of the notch: http://super8wiki.com/index.php/Super_8_Ca...dge_Notch_Ruler

As far as E-64 is concerned, last time I looked (last used that stock a year ago, not my kind of aesthetics), the cartridge used by Kodak was SMPTE 166-2004-compliant, which means that its notch coding was giving the correct exposure index, and also featuring a filter notch.
This means that when you insert the E-64 into your Canosound wonderpiece, the Multi-Pin System used by Canon will adjust the TTL exposure meter correctly (the f-stops will be correct), and the filter switch will operate as it's written in the manual, too.

When your Pro8mm film stock arrives (which ones did you order?), feel free to come back so we can discuss Phil Vigeant's personal approach to compliant notch coding.

With regard to Wratten 85 vs. 85B. To be honest, I would be the first person to insist on correct filtering if I want to achieve results as outlined by the manufacturer (only when you master this does experimenting around actually makes some sense, because you recognise and understand the resulting differences better). However, in this particular case, I step forward and say that the 200-kelvin variance that the Wratten 85B compensates as opposed to the 85, is quite negligible, so I wouldn't bother to purchase a screw-on 85B ? especially as you would need one only for E-64: Kodak Vision2 and Fuji Eterna negative stocks require the "regular" Wratten 85.
(don't get confused if Fuji demands a Fuji LBA-12 ? that's essentially another name for the same filter.

I hope that despite the lengthiness of my scribble, some of your questions habe been answered, Alan.

Enjoy shooting cine-film, and enjoy hanging around here.

-Michael



P.S.: Don't forget to check out Giles Perkins' film stock overview if you havn't already.
There is also a great review of your camera plus plenty of other enlightening articles about Super 8 workflows and production practices in the current issue of Super 8 Today. Check it out!

BTW.: Giles, havn't forgotten about Kahl films, will do on Tuesday latest!

Edited by Michael Lehnert, 14 October 2007 - 12:50 AM.

  • 0

#4 Alan Brown

Alan Brown
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts
  • Student
  • London

Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:53 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. And thanks for the Canon manual, which didn't come with my camera. Its a good job I asked the question because my instinct would have been to set the filter switch to the lamp position for outdoor filming with tungsten film. I now understand how the system works based on the fact that Super 8 cameras are generally based around tungsten film. I'll just take the camera out, make sure the filter is set to the sun symbol and see how the film turns out. I'll be using the cams in built meter for this shoot although I've just purchased a Sekonic L-398 incident meter.

Something that bugs me about Super 8 cameras is the fact that, to my knowledge, none of them have a shutter angle of 180 degrees. I don't understand why! I wish the Canon XL-S had a shutter setting of 180 as well as 150 and 220.

But maybe there's a good reason for this.
  • 0

#5 Dan Salzmann

Dan Salzmann
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1143 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Paris, France

Posted 16 October 2007 - 03:26 PM

Why not use your Sekonic incident meter?
  • 0

#6 Alan Brown

Alan Brown
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts
  • Student
  • London

Posted 16 October 2007 - 03:55 PM

I will do when I use the camera for more serious shoots. For now I just want to run off a cartridge of both reversal and negative film on the cams inbuilt meter to see how the results turn out. It's a curiosity thing (though in this case I hope curiosity doesn't kill the filmmaker).
  • 0

#7 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 16 October 2007 - 04:07 PM

Something that bugs me about Super 8 cameras is the fact that, to my knowledge, none of them have a shutter angle of 180 degrees.


The Sankyo CME1100.
  • 0

#8 Michael Lehnert

Michael Lehnert
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1086 posts
  • Other
  • London, UK / Basel, CH

Posted 16 October 2007 - 05:11 PM

Something that bugs me about Super 8 cameras is the fact that, to my knowledge, none of them have a shutter angle of 180 degrees. I don't understand why! I wish the Canon XL-S had a shutter setting of 180 as well as 150 and 220.
But maybe there's a good reason for this.


The problem you raise, esp. relevant for people who use external lightmetering without knowledge of the shutter opening angle of the camera used, has less to do with "none having" 180° shutters (actually, 180° are not uncommon among cameras until the mid-1970s), but more with the lack of reasonable standardisation of the shutter opening angle to 180° in the Super 8 format as we have seen it in the more recent past for 16mm and 35mm cameras. ("more recent" in context of 112 years of cinematography, i.e. ;) !).

The reason for a lack of standardisaton has to do with the multitude of manufacturers and the consumer market segment S8 was originally targeted at. When you look at Normal 16 cameras pre-1960s, before the format was professionalised, these consumer cameras don't necessarily feature a 180° shutter either. And only afterwards is it safe to assume that a N16/S16/N35/S35 camera will feature a 180° setting for sure.

In the Super 8 format, you will mostly find cameras with shutter opening angles from 144° to 180° on one hand (with the shutter determined by the form factor and special features of the camera which mattered more then than they did for a Arriflex 35 BL), and so-called XL cameras (eXisting Light) with 200° to 225° on the other hand (combined with faster lenses and expanded notch-reading for more sensitive films). The first are most common until the mid-1970s, the latter become common from the late 1970s onwards. Some top gear cameras (which would be the one's to use when shooting with Super 8 for contemporary usage) have a variable shutter that can be changed to 0° while filming (which is quite rare in larger formats and allows easy-to-handle in-camera cinematic flexibility, which is what S8 is all about in respect to S16/35) and/or which have fixed settings across the range. Your Canon 1014XL-S belongs to that group.

As you know, the larger the shutter opening angle the more light exposes each Super 8 frame. Shorter shutter opening angles make the picture appear sharper, plastic, more motion-aware. The introduction of longer shutter openings let in more light ? which was considered crucial to make (home/theatre-)projected films appear brighter, friendlier, inviting and colour-intensive ? while expanding the depth-of-field (to reduce focusing errors), allowing filming under low light situations with available light (which made more sense as cameras could record direct sound onto the film, so a new dimension of depicted information became available), and finally blurring motion-movements in the picture which eliminates cross-screen strobing when panning over close objects or filming rapidly moving objects. These results were considered a major cinematic progress by Panavision when they introduced the 200° variable shutter for the Mitchell-rivalling Panaflex 65-models in 1960.

Actually, top camera gear of the Super 8 format is very well equiped and reliable when it comes to optical and camera-mechanical features, with many aspects (cartridge reliability, film pressure, pull-down movement types, film path construction, optical qualities) being overly criticised by some.
  • 0

#9 Jim Carlile

Jim Carlile
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 24 October 2007 - 12:17 AM

... Its a good job I asked the question because my instinct would have been to set the filter switch to the lamp position for outdoor filming with tungsten film. I now understand how the system works based on the fact that Super 8 cameras are generally based around tungsten film. I'll just take the camera out, make sure the filter is set to the sun symbol and see how the film turns out.


You're lucky with the 1014XLS, because it will expose the film at the correct ASA 64. Most cameras won't do that, which means that you have to jimmy around with the meter one way or another. Silent cartridges can be noisy so don't worry about all the scuttering and scraping sounds you might hear from the camera-- it's normal.
  • 0


The Slider

FJS International, LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

CineTape

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

CineLab

Rig Wheels Passport

Opal

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Visual Products

Glidecam

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Paralinx LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

Technodolly

Wooden Camera

Opal

CineTape

The Slider

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio

Aerial Filmworks

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies