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Great News, A Production Hold


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#1 Tim Carroll

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 09:35 PM

For those of you who may not have seen this:

We are on a Production Hold. But this time, we think you will appreciate it.

1. We are implementing a new daughter board to the sensor. The result is increased dynamic range and reduced noise (incredible as that may seem) over serial numbers 1-100 with no downside. This improvement affects all frame rates at or below 25fps. This is a major breakthrough for RED and I am sure will be of great benefit to all camera owners.

2. We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims. It is as close to a religious experience as a lens mount gets.

3. We are taking time to enable more features and stabilize the firmware. We have a few more bugs than we like with each new build. The firmware should be finished about the same time we execute the new daughter board and PL mount.

We will retrofit all shipped cameras (1-100) with these changes at our expense then begin production again.

We have a production line fully operational that is stocked with parts ready to go as soon as we can implement these improvements. The cameras affected most are 101-200.

We made the decision today to hold production so we have the fewest amount of cameras to retrofit. I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th.

We believe we can make all these changes with this minor schedule impact even though the fire generated ash has contaminated our clean rooms and will take a week to fix. The fires still rage here and ash is everywhere.

We appreciate your patience. These changes and additions will greatly increase the capability and convenience of the RED ONE for all users. This is a perfect example of the RED ONE becoming a "next generation" camera for all our users without any additional cost.

Jim


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#2 Gary McClurg

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 10:00 PM

I sent a friend, a guy who would like to buy the camera an email two days ago. I asked him if he had heard anything. He said he hadn't and he asked me why I was asking.

I replied back that lately everytime someone comes here to pick a fight two days later we hear of a delay or something is wrong with the camera... and here it is two days later and the camera has been delayed

Edited by Gary McClurg, 24 October 2007 - 10:01 PM.

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#3 Tim Carroll

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 11:08 PM

Not a RED fan by any means, but I do feel for those guys. Trying to get a camera up and into production, especially one with the complexity of what they are trying to accomplish, that is really a challenge.

I've heard from a number of sources that the PL mount was an issue and since I service Arriflex cameras and know how critical the FFD is on a film camera, I can only imagine that it is as critical on the RED. Glad they're getting that fixed.

Hope it works out for them,
-Tim
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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:16 AM

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

Phil
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#5 Max Jacoby

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 02:20 AM

Since when is a production hold great news? Love the spindoctoring ;)

To be honest none of this is surprising (and I don't mean this in a negative way so don't try to pick a fight), their release schedule has always been too ambitious. The first cameras and lenses were basically beta cameras that got sold to customers before all the bugs and problems were ironed out. At least they are owning up to the mistakes and are fixing it free of charge.
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#6 Evan Owen

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:14 AM

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

Phil


I don't see how it's any more complex either. It's just very different. What makes it more difficult (IMHO) is the size of the team and the short development cycle they've attempted.

It does do onboard demosaic (for the LCD and HD-SDI/HDMI preview). It just doesn't record the demosaiced data, thankfully.

Edited by Evan Owen, 25 October 2007 - 09:15 AM.

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#7 Tim Carroll

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:16 AM

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

Phil


Phil,

If it was being developed by Panasonic or Sony, I would agree with you. And I really know very little about RED the company or the camera, but I do know Jim Jannard as the force behind Oakley sunglasses, having dealt with his products since the mid 1980's, and when I heard a couple of years ago that he was going to try to do this with the RED camera, my thought was that he certainly had the marketing ability to do this, but I wasn't so sure he had the engineering and electronics part of the project covered. And I wasn't so sure the team had a clear understanding of how technically difficult a camera like this was to develop. Sony and Panasonic did not get where they are overnight, they built on decades of technology development. Besides the marketing campaign, there is very little similarity between sunglasses and a state of the art digital video camera.

But again, I know very little about RED the company or how they went about developing this camera.

-Tim
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#8 Gary McClurg

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:42 AM

But again, I know very little about RED the company or how they went about developing this camera.
-Tim


It could be wild gossip who knows... but I've heard that some say that if Jannard would hire a few more people on the staff who have done this before... he would get things done quicker... I'm not sure how the person but it... spend the extra money and get it done... and this was from a person who was suppose to get their camera in the next shipment...

Leaving out names to protect the innocent... :lol: I'm sure they want their camera... and was joking about the last bit... :lol:
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#9 Tim Carroll

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:06 PM

Since when is a production hold great news? Love the spindoctoring ;)



If you want to see the genius of Jim Jannard's marketing of the RED camera, just read one page of the replies to his announcement posted above about the production delay. Folks are falling all over themselves telling him how great it is that the cameras are delayed (these are people who gave him $2000 deposits up to a year ago). They couldn't be happier:

RedUser.net forum page

Amazing,
-Tim
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#10 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:14 PM

If you want to see the genius of Jim Jannard's marketing of the RED camera, just read one page of the replies to his announcement posted above about the production delay. Folks are falling all over themselves telling him how great it is that the cameras are delayed (these are people who gave him $2000 deposits up to a year ago). They couldn't be happier:

RedUser.net forum page

Amazing,
-Tim


I thought these people were going to even the score with Hollywood? Looks to me that they are waiting around. I would rather shoot on film in the now than wait. For that $2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash.

When you said amazing, you really nailed it. This guy could make a felon happy about getting denied parole.
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#11 don donatello

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:37 PM

get your facts straight ....
a year ago it was $1000 for a reservation not 2000 ...
also note that those that did put down 1000 a year ago get $2500 off accessories ...so you tell me what bank you can deposit 1000 into a CD and when you withdraw it you get your 1000 + 2500 ?? ....
also note that if one decided they do not want the camera RED will give them back 1200 - again you tell me what bank is paying 20% interest on 1000 ... the only accounts that i know about paying 5% require 10K +

"$2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash. "

so exactly why didn't you shoot 16mm with the extra cash from that CD ???
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#12 Tim Carroll

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:22 PM

If what our new member donatello (by the way, please follow forum's rules by using your full name) says about the deposit one year ago being only $1000 (and I have no way of knowing if this is true or not), then I stand corrected.

And since those who gave RED $1000 (or $2000) for a deposit on a camera up to a year ago, are now more than happy that the delivery of said camera is being delayed for an indeterminate amount of time,

I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th. -Jim Jannard


I would say that the folks at RED have nothing to worry about any of these customers wanting to cancel their deposits and get their money back.

Like I said, marketing genius.

-Tim
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#13 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:59 PM

get your facts straight ....
a year ago it was $1000 for a reservation not 2000 ...
also note that those that did put down 1000 a year ago get $2500 off accessories ...so you tell me what bank you can deposit 1000 into a CD and when you withdraw it you get your 1000 + 2500 ?? ....
also note that if one decided they do not want the camera RED will give them back 1200 - again you tell me what bank is paying 20% interest on 1000 ... the only accounts that i know about paying 5% require 10K +

"$2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash. "

so exactly why didn't you shoot 16mm with the extra cash from that CD ???


I dont have a $2,000 CD. I'm saying that if I was one of the RED reservation holders who did (BTW, although the deposit was $1,000, that was the camera only...many people reserved the lens too, making the deposit greater), I would have done better to put my money in a CD and shoot on 16mm. Although you tell me now that I should have put my money in the bank of Jannard and got 20%. Wow, maybe I should have.

You miss the point Tim was making. He was showing that people are all too happy to allow JJ to take his sweet time despite his pretentious delivery schedule. If Kodak did such a thing, everyone would be on them like flies on dung.

I don't understand why posters like you come on this forum and defend RED so fervently but do not have the courage to give your real name. Tim, I, and many others here put our reputations on the line everytime we speak. Maybe at times we speak foolishly, but at least we have to stand by our words. That is the idea Tim Tyler had, I'm sure, when he implemented the real name thing. I think it's wonderful that he does so. You don't honestly expect us to believe that your real name is Don Donetello, do you? That's like me saying I'm Matt Matthews.
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#14 don donatello

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 02:06 AM

"You miss the point Tim was making. He was showing that people are all too happy to allow JJ to take his sweet time despite his pretentious delivery schedule."

Red has always stated everything subject to change .. so what ! if RED delays the delivery and the persons that put down a deposit are OK with it - if they don't like it they do have choices - wait , complain, buy another camera or any combination ..
i know on the projects i work on we all have good intentions on dates, equipment ..we all like to think we can do it and many times we do and sometimes we don't ...

"I don't understand why posters like you come on this forum and defend RED so fervently"

1st i was pointing out that reservationist from a year ago are ending up with a good deal on their down payment ... now on this post i'm defending RED reservationist ... why should it bother you if they are OK with the trade off of a delay and a improved camera ??


"but do not have the courage to give your real name. "You don't honestly expect us to believe that your real name is Don Donetello, do you?"

now before i would make that kind of statement i would at least try google ...
it's the name on my driver license .. and it is not the name i use in business ...according to cinematograpghy.com guidelines i cannot use my business/credit name .. i have to say i do like the sound of Matt Matthews ...

Tim - did we meet in Portland maybe 4-5 years ago ... maybe something to do with vinton studio's
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#15 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:15 AM

Don is a man well known for his Hawaiian shirts over on DVinfo.

I don't know the details of the RED marketing plan, but I assume it was that by involving people at an early stage they would build a loyal hardcore customer base to a product that was starting from scratch. The deposits were deemed to be safe guarded by a company owner who, if the whole enterprise went belly up, would want to protect his good name and had the personal resources to refund these deposits.

However, the downside to this seems been a pressure to get production cameras out to customers at stage when established manufacturers would still be involved in the pre-production models and making them fully functional. That's not to say that production models from the established manufacturers don't have problems, it took JVC a few months to get the HD 100 sorted. In aviation, the production model of the F22 fighter had a problem when it crossed the international date line for the first time: its navigation system crashed.

What seems to have come out from is that these data based HD cameras are more difficult to get to a mature stage than it first appeared. SI have had a few delays as well and the Infinity, from an established manufacturer, is still being worked on behind the scenes, although I've read a good report on it for green screen work.
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#16 Tim Carroll

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 08:04 AM

Tim - did we meet in Portland maybe 4-5 years ago ... maybe something to do with vinton studio's


Not me, I've only been out here a couple of years. There's alot of Tim Carroll's out there.

-Tim
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#17 Gary McClurg

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 06:07 PM

...according to cinematograpghy.com guidelines i cannot use my business/credit name ..


Sounds like my cousin... he can't use Paul Newman in business... even though that's not the other Paul Newman's real name...

I was just wondering if anyone knows who Paul Newman is anymore... :lol:

Actually I joked with some young guy once and said yeah I can get Paul Newman to be in my movie... and he said... yeah but he's too old for the part...
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#18 Seung Han

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 10:40 PM

Maybe just a touch of self-deprecating sarcasm...just a touch...???...
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#19 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 04:24 AM

However, the downside to this seems been a pressure to get production cameras out to customers at stage when established manufacturers would still be involved in the pre-production models and making them fully functional. That's not to say that production models from the established manufacturers don't have problems, it took JVC a few months to get the HD 100 sorted. In aviation, the production model of the F22 fighter had a problem when it crossed the international date line for the first time: its navigation system crashed.

What seems to have come out from is that these data based HD cameras are more difficult to get to a mature stage than it first appeared. SI have had a few delays as well and the Infinity, from an established manufacturer, is still being worked on behind the scenes, although I've read a good report on it for green screen work.


He has done surprisingly well, all things considered.

Compare this with Panavision, who have been fiddling with the concept of HD cinematography for the best part of ten years. Despite having a whole division devoted to this concept, with countless presidents, vice-presidents, managers of "Digital" this and that, what do they have to show for it?

A fleet of 100 or so aging ENG-style cameras with lenses that will not work on any of their film cameras, (and vice-versa), and 30 or so "super-35" -sized single-sensor cameras which have basically the same processing circuitry as the earlier ones. Neither type was developed by Panavision in more than a superficial way. They're both Sony cameras, and the CineAltas at least are available to anybody with the money to buy one.

(Not that this really matters; after an initial flurry of interest, neither type has received much more than a lukewarm response from mainstream film makers anyway).

So what this goes to show is the difference between starting off fresh and hiring a totally new team of engineers with a proven track record in their various fields, and trying to "Gerrymander" a project to fit into an existing management culture with no real experience in the field. It's fascinating to read some of
Google News'
archived stories from around 2000 on digital cinematography, and Panavision's predictions of what the future was going to hold.

(By the way, I don't know how long Google have had the "archive" feature, but it currently goes back to the 1920s and makes fascinating reading on all sorts of subjects, not just this one. Unfortunately most of the older stories are from the NY Times and they want $4.95 a story, which I think is a trifle optimistic:-)

If this feature had only been available 18 months ago, Jannard may have had a better understanding of all the skepticism that was initially levelled at his project. If nothing else it shows up the "house of mirrors" nature of Internet news reporting, since most of the stories are virtually word-for-word copies of other stories.

Edited by Keith Walters, 27 October 2007 - 04:27 AM.

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#20 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 04:32 AM

Sounds like my cousin... he can't use Paul Newman in business... even though that's not the other Paul Newman's real name...

I was just wondering if anyone knows who Paul Newman is anymore... :lol:

The daughter of a friend of mine is a high-powered corporate lawyer, named Jessica Simpson :lol: .

Edited by Keith Walters, 27 October 2007 - 04:33 AM.

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