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Some bauer 715 beginner questions


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#1 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 10:35 AM

Today i received a new camera in the mail. The Bauer S 715 XL. It's build like a tank, and i love it's design/style ( fashion over function hehe ).

I have some questions about the camera and it's filmstocks. It came with 4x vision 200T. Yes, Vision 200T, not Vision2 200T. The processing method for that stock is 'ecn.2'.

Questions:

1. Do i need to use the build in 85 filter for shooting outdoors ? And what about indoors ? I will be shooting an explosion in a few days at night/outdoors. Filter ?

2. Is there much difference between vision 200T and vision2 200T ?

3. I'm having some trouble with the viewfinder. When i look into it i see nothing, except if i look into it with a perfect angle. Allthough this 'perfect angle' works OK ( same with my canon 518 ) , i'll always see some sort of blur in the lower left corner. Like this:

Posted Image

I'm suspecting my eye. Do i have some sort of weird eye or is there a special technique ?

4. I will NOT compensate with manual exposure ( the bauer reads 200T as 160 ), michael lehnert cleared that up last time ( thanks ! ). Any other stuff i have to pay attention to ? This is very expensive for me with all the proccesing costs so i cant afford 4x vision2 shot all wrong ( i know, then dont get vision but it came with the camera ).

That's it for now. Hope some of you guys that have more knowledge then me can answer.

Edited by Sander Ferdinand, 07 November 2007 - 10:38 AM.

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#2 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 11:54 AM

5. Is the shutterspeed static ? Let's say i want to shoot a timelapse on a bussy road at night. I can set the frames per MINUTE at: 1, 10, 60, 240. Does the frames per minute influence the shutterspeed ? Because if it doesn't then it doesnt matter if you shoot at 1000 frames per minute or 1, the lights will still show perfectly 'intact', and not motion blurred out. Pardon my bad english.
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#3 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 12:10 PM

sry, double post. It seems there is a bug in the forum. I can't edit my posts !

Edited by Sander Ferdinand, 07 November 2007 - 12:11 PM.

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#4 Matthew Buick

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 03:37 PM

Hello, Sander. Good luck on your purchase.

The 85 filter is for shooting Tungsten film outdoors, where it would turn out very blue. To shoot Daylight film indoors you'll need an 80A filter. I've heard claims that to shoot Ektachrome 64T you'll need to screw an 85B on the lens.

Vision 200T came before Vision2 200T. It was discontinued in 2004. If the film has been properly stored it'll shoot OK. However it will be grainer than Vision2.

I couldn't comment on that viewfinder blur really. It looks like a finger, though obviously it isn't. There probably a bit of paper in the viewfinder.
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#5 Kevin Olmsted

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 11:26 AM

Hello!

While I'm not qualified to answer any of the technical questions you ask (I'm just starting to take Super 8 seriously after years of 'messing around') I can comment on the viewfinder issue.

I also have a 715XL and I see the same thing inside my viewfinder. I have only shot one roll with it and on that roll the corner blur was not on the film. I believe this is an anomaly in the 715 veiwfinder. Does anyone else have this in their 715's?

I also have a Bauer 209XL that had the same issue. I disassembled the veiwfinder tube and cleaned it out and it was clear after that. I haven't dove into my 715 that deep yet.

Kevin
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#6 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:27 PM

Hello!

While I'm not qualified to answer any of the technical questions you ask (I'm just starting to take Super 8 seriously after years of 'messing around') I can comment on the viewfinder issue.

I also have a 715XL and I see the same thing inside my viewfinder. I have only shot one roll with it and on that roll the corner blur was not on the film. I believe this is an anomaly in the 715 veiwfinder. Does anyone else have this in their 715's?

I also have a Bauer 209XL that had the same issue. I disassembled the veiwfinder tube and cleaned it out and it was clear after that. I haven't dove into my 715 that deep yet.

Kevin


Thank you, as i see im not the only one. Ill screw up my 715 apart soon and check what it is.

sander
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#7 Jim Carlile

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:40 AM

That blur looks more like a flag. Is there film in the camera? Is the filter switch in the right place? Often these cameras throw flags into one or more corners of the viewfinder to indicate certain conditions.
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#8 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 07:58 AM

Hi, sorry to chime it lately:

Nice to see that the camera arrived safely, and works well.

1.
Matthew cleared up the filter and Vision issues already. Just to add on that: Bauer had a lax implementation of the cartridge notch coding system, with one either/or 25/40 & 160/200 pin. It also did not have a filter notch-sensing pin that would automatically activate (i.e. swivel into the optical path) the built-in Wratten 85 filter. This means actually well in today's post-K-40 world that you don't have to worry whether the filter is automatically activated or not by the missing or existing filter notch on some Super 8 cartridges: if you have the bulb symbol selected, the filter is always out of the optical path, if you see the sun symbol, the filter is always active in the optical path.
As Matthew said, all T films (irrespective of neg or reversal) require the Wratten 85 (sun symbol) when shooting outdoors.

2. Wow, 7274? I really hope that was cold-stored, otherwise, at least two years of potentioally "hanging around in room temperature" will visibly affect the grain-structure and colour-reproduction.
As Matthew said: Under ideal conditions, when comparing 7274 to the current 7217, expect a little less latitude and a tiny amount more visible grain. The Kodak Vision2 200 T is from my perspective the best Super 8 emulsion currently out, with E-100 for reversals. 7201 Vision 2 50 D would be great to have from Kodak directly, too (sorry for this recurring lobby-post sentence)

3. This is unusual, Sander, especially as Kevin has the same symptoms in this 715?! I never came across or heard about that with any Bauer, incl the 715.
This cannot relate to the filter setting or the inserted film as the camera in question is not mirror reflex but prism-based. Hence, what you see is not "exactly" what you get on the film. As the "blur" did not end up on exposed film, a problem in the viewfinder system is the only possible location. Jim, your point about an indication flag is very good, but I cannot recall Bauer having any such devices in use from the early 1970s onwards, certainly not in the C-, A- and S-series cameras.
And as Kevin had that in his S 209 as well, I presume some problem with the internal caches inserted in the viewfinder optical system that has developed over time... but how?
Could you both give some info on what the "degree" of looking into the viewfinder would be in when measured from the ideal viewing axis (how many degrees off?)
Try to open and close the ocular button which opens and closes the viewfinder to stray light when rewinding film. Does the blur persist?
Finally: Sander, did you take the attached photo of the viewfinder in real, i.e. is this a real digital still made through the ocular, or a mere Photoshop mock-up of the viewfinder?

4.
In an ideal world, it would have been better to first buy a dirt-cheap cartridge of E-64 and shot that to check if the camera runs well before investing in exposing the V-200. Especially if you intend to film some filmically important very interesting-sounding pyrotechnic effect? What will be blown up, and where?

5.
As the 715 does unfortunately not have a variable shutter, the opening angle of 220° remains unchanged. If by shutterspeed you mean exposure time, then that one changes with each filming speed selected, from 9 fps to 40 fps.
However, the timer function on any rgular intervalometer will use the same exposure time throughout its filming speeds (e.g. from the 715's 4 fps/240 fpm to 1fpm). Those used by Bauer have a fixed exposure time throughout as well, normally around 1/10, 1/8 or 1/6 sec. This exposure time is too short to achieve any visually meaningful motion blur (blurred lights or trailing lights of cars on a road at night). Hence, if you want to achieve some true motion blur, I am afraid you will need an intervalometer with not only a T-style timer but a B-style timer for time exposures which combines an opened-up variable shutter with long (either measured or pre-set) exposure times. You can find these built-in on the Bauer Royal, Bauer A 512 and Nizo big-body (silent) cameras, and via (now rare) accessories for the Beaulieu 4008-series and Leitz Leicina Special.
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#9 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:47 PM

That blur looks more like a flag. Is there film in the camera? Is the filter switch in the right place? Often these cameras throw flags into one or more corners of the viewfinder to indicate certain conditions.

Hmmmm, When the filter switch is on daylight the blur thing goes away. What should the flag indicate ? The camera does not have a filter notch.

Hi, sorry to chime it lately:

Nice to see......


Thanks for your always helpfull posts.

1. Yes, i noticed. There is only one notch indeed and that is the 25/40 notch. This means the camera's defualt is at 160/200. But wait, i believe my camera was only 160. How can it be you say it's 160/200 ? Does this mean i can expose 200T at it's true speed ?

3. Thank you for thinking that my quick-made thingy in Photoshop is real. That actually makes me think im a good photoshopper haha. As i mentioned before in this post, the flag goes away when i engage the filter. Allthough i'm happy i dont have to take the viewfinder apart i still believe this is really weird. How does the camera know that i'm filming without filter while the 200T stock needs the filter ? It doesn't even have a filter notch.

4. Yes, i understand but the camera came with the filmstocks. I can't resist looking at my camera and knowing that i can film with it with 4 rolls of unexposed film, but i cant because i have to wait for e64. Haha, i know it might have been a better idea to do that however on the other hand I'm not filming super important stuff. I gave myself till the end of this year to learn everything about filmstocks and camera's. Well, not everything, but to a point that I'm experienced enough to understand the concept of lightning in film. Ill save you my life story haha but i'm planning on starting a video production company when i'm 18, in about 2 months. I have been traveling around alot the last 3 years shooting for several big skateboarding and snowboarding companys/publishers/magazines. This way i couldnt finish my school because i find filming and traveling much more important and school a waste of time ( many people will disagree, but probaly don't know the sucky dutch school system ). I've always shot digital while in some situations rather wanted to use film but couldnt because of lack of money. Now that i have this 'company' i can use film for commercial/promotional/docu/shortfilm stuff. I'd rather shoot everything in film btw, maybe better financial times will allow me ;) Anyways, what i wanted to say is that it doesn't really matter what film i use at this moment because it's all for testing.

Back to your question. It's almost new years eve. Fireworks are very popular in Holland. Someone i know makes this big bombs every year and they are very impressive. I thoughed it was a good idea to film that in slowmotion on super8, hehe. The bomb includes 4x 3inch display shells + (some more stuff) wich will result in great colors and light effects.

5. But is it possible ? I indeed ment exposure time. If you look into the manual, page 60,61 ( */pg 60_61.jpg ) i can spot the effect im trying to achieve ( at the 'berlin title' picture ). Would you suggest 60 frames per minute, or less ?

Grtz,
Sander

Edited by Sander Ferdinand, 09 November 2007 - 12:49 PM.

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#10 Kevin Olmsted

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:16 PM

Well, I got brave and dove deeper into my 715XL. The deepest I'd ever gone before was the main circuit board to modify the exposure control pot to make it adjustable.

There was a bit of dirt on the front end of the viewfinder so I did some delicate cleaning. I had to leave her on the workbench last night so she'll get reassembled tonight. I'll update then.

There was also discussion here about the 'angle of view' when looking through the viewfinder to get a clear view. I've noticed certain cameras have wider fields of view than others. Perhaps Michael can chime in here... is this true? My personal experience is that all of my Bauers have a narrower field i.e. I have to look more straight on into the viewfinder to get a clear image.I would say, though, that my 715 seems to have a narrower field than my 209XL; and my 209XL sees to have a slightly narrower angle of view than my C500. In contrast I look through my Nizo 116 and there is a lot more latitude. Same goes for an old Technicolor Super 8 I have. Comments?
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#11 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:23 PM

Hmmmm, When the filter switch is on daylight the blur thing goes away. What should the flag indicate ? The camera does not have a filter notch.


Ah, that is new information! So when the filter is in the optical path, a part-blurring that is on, disappears. So that would essentially mean that part of the filter or part of the filter insertion mechanism covers the optical path that is spun out via the prism into the viewfinder. So it's not a problem with the viewfinder tube caches or mask. The problem is located at the place where the filter is physically moved in the body.
I don't have an explosion diagram of the S 7XX around to check how the mechanics are operated and where the filter is exactly located in the body. The S 7XX was a new construction not based on an established predecessor (like the A 5XX on the Royal, for example), and plenty of Nizo technology was incorporated, too (which is not meant in a derisory way, should anyone be inclined to read the sentence like that), so it's nearly impossible to deduct from other Bauer designs. When dismantling the outer case, it might well be that you are unable to reach the internal mechanics without some mighty dissambleing, as is normally the case with Nizo. Let's see what Kevin finds out if he decides to disassemble his one...

1. Yes, i noticed. There is only one notch indeed and that is the 25/40 notch. This means the camera's defualt is at 160/200. But wait, i believe my camera was only 160. How can it be you say it's 160/200 ? Does this mean i can expose 200T at it's true speed ?


Wooaaw. Sorry, I meant of course either 25/40 and 100/160, meaning: the either-or EI the camera's meassurements are based on with and without the Wratten 85 compensation (to be exact: 25D/40T or 100D/160T).
My 160/200 quote is an ill-thought typo (too much '200 T' typing in this thread for my brain, I guess :wacko: ), and all what I said about exposing 7217 with ISO 160 or lower in the thread you hyperlinked in your first post remains valid.
Apologies for the confusion!

Anyways, what i wanted to say is that it doesn't really matter what film i use at this moment because it's all for testing.


Okay, that's fair enough. I wish you wholehearteldy all the best for the career path you have chosen.

If you look into the manual, page 60,61 ( */pg 60_61.jpg ) i can spot the effect im trying to achieve ( at the 'berlin title' picture ). Would you suggest 60 frames per minute, or less ?


Oh, I see what you mean... I am afraid that this picture is a bit misleading. Someone should call Heinz Wächtler about that ;) . I am afraid what I wrote in my first post in this thread, remains standing. You will not be able to achieve true time exposure motion blur (e.g. light cometing) with the Timer function of the intervalometer. The best you can achieve is a series of fast appearing light specles at best.
In order to find out for regular timer shots what running speed to choose on the T-style intervalometer (irrespective of the exposure time; note: not time exposure!), you should base your decision of how fast the events occurs in realtime, and cross-calculate that with the length of film (time period) you want to see as result when screened. The manual actually gives a nice table on the preceeding pages.
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#12 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:29 PM

[quote name='Kevin Olmsted' post='202784' date='Nov 9 2007, 08:16 PM']Well, I got brave and dove deeper into my 715XL. The deepest I'd ever gone before was the main circuit board to modify the exposure control pot to make it adjustable.

There was a bit of dirt on the front end of the viewfinder so I did some delicate cleaning. I had to leave her on the workbench last night so she'll get reassembled tonight. I'll update then.[/quote]

So this is indeed ? at least in your case ? related to the viewfinder optical tube, here: dirt on it.
Glad to hear that one cam is cleaned and "fusselfrei" as one says in German (pronounced in German, the word sounds a bit like the name of a Muppet... hmm, this is not my day of producing clear thoughts and contributing well...).

Kevin, feel free to post some pictures of the disassembled 715; only if you find some spare time for that, of course. From what I gathered, it is even more electronics-heavy than the Nizo sound cameras and Canon 814XL-S & 1014XL-S. Bauer was quite proud of "its" microprocessor technoligy then (and lots of other bought-in Nizo technology).

[quote name='Kevin Olmsted' date='Nov 9 2007, 08:16 PM' post='202784']
There was also discussion here about the 'angle of view' when looking through the viewfinder to get a clear view. I've noticed certain cameras have wider fields of view than others. Perhaps Michael can chime in here... is this true?

Correct, not only for Super 8 cameras but for any ocular system. In 16mm, the angle of view of my Bolex 16 Pro is narrower than my brothers Eclair ACL. So while its viewfinder is actually bigger, you cannot glance lighty at it and see where you are pointing. You have to get up and close.

The angle of view is conditioned by three parameters: the placement of the ocular mask (the black frame, if you want), the curvature of the rear ocular lens, and the magnification of the viewfinder system overall.

The Beaulieu 4008-series has arguably the biggest magnification of all S8 cameras, resulting in a wide&broad, light&bright viewfinder beating many entry-level 16mm cameras. But it has a very narrow angle of view. When mounted on support systems, you really have to put your eye close and well-aligned to oversee the entire viewfinder. Beware of potential vignetting that escapes the operator when s/he is not attentive while using problematic primes or zooms via C-Mount adapters.

The Bauer A 512 (which also has a very big viewfinder) is also behaving in that respect. Dito the Bauer C 700 XLM, as those have well-sized viewfinders! The last generation of the C triple digit models is much underrated, anyhow!

The Nizo sound cameras have a much smaller viewfinder, and small cache mask, especially with all their built-in technicolor-dreamcoat space-age diods communicating more info to the camera-operator than a Tricorder could possibly collect. Commag sound filming with those cameras was such a fun... like "son-et-lumière"-chatting with the aliens from "Close Encounters".
[this post and its cultural references will annoy anyone who wasn't a child in the late 1970s, early 1980s B) ]

To cut it short! In relation to these three paramters: ? [overall size of viewinder viewing field bigger -> angle of view narrower] ^_^

Now, we'll just have to wait for a camera that is the exception to this rule :D .
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#13 Jim Carlile

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 02:54 AM

yeah, I suspected that that red "blur" was only an indicator flag-- that's what it looks like.

Apparently, when you flip the filter switch to 'daylight,' the flag disappears-- that's what it is supposed to do-- it indicates that no 85 filter is in place. It's a reminder.

Many cameras do it the other way around-- there's a flag when the 85 is in place. Whatever-- that's normal, there's no problem. You'll probably find another flag pops up at the top when the meter thinks there is not enough light....maybe even another one when the film is all exposed.

Other people have commented that the 715 viewfinder is hard to look through-- I don't know-- I recall that I used to have trouble with the Bolex 155 viewfinder until I got used to it and learned how to look through it....
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#14 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 07:14 AM

Well, I'd have to say the 715 viewfinder is indeed a bit tricky, Jim. The Canon 514XL-S gives me more room for 'not looking into it with a perfect angle'. On the other hand, I believe it is very sharp and accurate. After a while you'll probaly get the hang of it.

Edited by Sander Ferdinand, 10 November 2007 - 07:15 AM.

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#15 Robert Hughes

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:05 PM

Uh, everybody? That red flag is an end-of-spool flag, also shows up when there's no film in the camera.
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#16 Sander Ferdinand

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:28 PM

It doesn't matter if i have a full film or empty film in the camera, the flag appears if the 'daylight' filter is disabled ( on tungsten ). Oh yeah, it's not red.

Edited by Sander Ferdinand, 16 November 2007 - 02:28 PM.

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