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Upcomming Super8 shoot


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#1 Emil Soderman

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:46 PM

Greetings all!

Im currently in the pre-production phase of a short film that we will shoot on Super8 using a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII .
We have ordered the ektachrome 64T reversal film from germany an will be getting it by the end of the week.
So we?re gonna do a test roll to make sure everything works like it should.
I will be doing the cinematography but this will be the first time ever using film insted of some sort of DV.
So ill get right down to the questions.

We got a Minolta Spotmeter F, One of these: http://www.rogercava.....otmeter F.pdf

So we need to sync the lightmeter to the camera.

I?ve found these figures at Wiki about the 4008
It got a Angenieux 1,9 / 8 - 64 mm
Exposure Times:

* 2fps = 1/7th second
* 4fps = 1/15th second
* 8fps = 1/30th second
* 18fps = 1/65th second
* 24fps = 1/80th second
* 25fps = 1/87th second
* 36fps = 1/130th second
* 50fps = 1/175th second
* 70fps = 1/250th second

We will try to run the camera at 25fps i think, atleast under fluorescent light to avoid flicker right?
Otherwise i guess 24fps is better so we can atleast try to record some sound and hope it syncs.
Not gonna be a dialogue heavy little film, and we can do most of the sound in post. We dont have any sync gen for it.

Or is that effected in any way by the Guillotine shutter? The flicker.
Maybe i should mention aswell that im located in Sweden, so 50Hz!

As far as i know that lightmeter can only use 1/60 or 1/120 shutter speeds.
So what should we set it for shooting at 1/80?

And what about shooting slowmotion? How will that effect it all?

This is what you call a micro budget movie, we will get some equipment from school and try to rent another 1.2k Arrisun,
in addition to that we got a few Redheads, some blondies and whatever we can get as practical lights.
Im sure a few more questions will arrise as we get closer the the actual shoot! Really appreciate any help and advice

Really grate community this is, been reading up on as many threads as possbile,
im sorry if i have missed the answer to any of my questions in any of them.
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#2 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 02:55 PM

Hi Emil.

You are a true pioneer. Even after shooting digital you still realize that also picking up a film camera and being proficient at shooting film is a logical extension of anyone who loves to shoot visual media.

As for the shutter speeds, keep in mind that the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th shutter speeds is the equivalent of one f-stop. In your situation you are concerned about the difference between 1/60th versus 1/80th. At most you are talking a third of one f-stop difference. If you were comparing 1/60th versus 1/100th, you'd be talking approximately 2/3 of an f-stop difference.

I am wondering if you considered going with Vision 200T Negative stock for your first effort. You would have a wider range of exposure latitude and an extra stop of sensitivity. Even the Vision 500T has a nice look as well. I see the Ektachrome 64 as more of an outdoors stock (with 85 filter added of course), or for those that will be doing the transfer themselves and would want to transfer reversal since negative is practically impossible to transfer correctly, or they simply love to be able to look at their film at any time and make out the images because it was shot on reversal film instead of negative film. You might also like the look of Ektachrome 64, but since this your first time it probably is a good time to both experiment but also be somewhat safe in making sure that you get the type of image down that you can mold and shape when editing.

But if you can properly light the Ektachrome film and remain aware of the tighter lighting ratios you should adhere to, you can get a good result as well.
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#3 Emil Soderman

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:14 PM

Thanks for the nice and informative replay Alessandro!

Think im getting my head around the Shutter speed difference somewhat, So basicly i need to expose 1 third of a F-stop lower then what the lightmeter suggests. I think the Guillotine design is good because you dont loos much light in camera right?
But maybe i would need to over exposue even abit further, im thinking since this is a zoom lens and it might not let in that much light? or am i way off?


Well our school didnt really want to spend too much money on us, and since the 64T was cheaper we went whit that.
Time is allso an issue, we should save some time going 64T compared to Negative.
Id sure like to try negative aswell, but i guess that will be in the future!


Oh, on the issue of Slowmotion, since the 4008 got a variable Shutter: 4 - 70fps, If i during a shoot crank it from 24fps to 70fps, will i not also underexpose my film really bad aswell? How do you normaly deal whit this?
Thanks again, all help appreciated greatly!
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#4 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 07:00 PM

Delete 'variable shutter', put 'variable filming speed' (note: note film speed, that's something else):

The camera compensates automatically for exposure if you increase or decrease the filming speed within reasonable speed (like slow, but distinct accelaration, not 'from 0-100 in 2 sec' or so)
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#5 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 07:25 PM

If you have access to the camera for a couple of days, I would immediately put the Beaulieu battery on charge until it is topped off.

I would try to cycle the batter all the way down and then recharge it again until it is topped off. lol, I'm not sure how to drain the Beaulieu battery without actually running film through the camera. As I recall, one is not supposed to run a super-8 camera for too long when there is no film in the camera.

If you will be shooting in cold temperatures, I'd try and get a back up battery as well. Does the automatic exposure meter
work on your Beaulieu camera? Any filming speed shifts that you plan on doing during a shot will probably work best if you have the proper exposure to begin with and are using auto-exposure. However if you were shooting negative stock you might be able to get away with a doubling of the filming speed without changing the f-stop as long as the footage is transferred by a competent rank cintel facility that can autograde the footage during transfer throughout the duration of the variable filming speed shot.
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#6 Emil Soderman

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 08:46 AM

Thank you!
Okay, lets not call it "variable shutter speed" :)
Well, i dont think i will ever let it run in automatic mode, maybe for the odd slowmotion shot then.

We're currently wokring on a homemade battery pack whit 2 sets of AA battery changes which i will run under my jacket to keept it warm!
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#7 Rachel Oliver

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 04:44 PM

Hi;

Emil, even though it's good practice to rely on a good external light meter, with super 8 and especially with reversal film (small margin for exposure error)! It's also a good idea to check out what the in camera light meter is reading in any given set up as as long as it's working properly as it takes into account the cameras own shutter speed and lens, I often work with both my cam and external meters to obtain well educated results. Remember with reversal check and check again, it's lovely looking but only when properly exposed...
Good luck

Olly
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#8 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 06:00 PM

Thank you!
Okay, lets not call it "variable shutter speed" :)
Well, i dont think i will ever let it run in automatic mode, maybe for the odd slowmotion shot then.

We're currently wokring on a homemade battery pack whit 2 sets of AA battery changes which i will run under my jacket to keept it warm!


Be aware that the beaulieu battery sends different voltages to the light meter versus what it sends to the power zoom and the camera motor. Anybody have a good lead for aftermarket beaulieu batteries?
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#9 Emil Soderman

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for the tip, but we're all sorted on the battery front. 7.2V on the center-, 3.6v on the middle- and ground on the far -tip.
I've heard about a dude here in Sweden that services beaulieus and can allso fix new batterys.
Think i got his mail somewhere.
These batterys should give us allot longer running time from our camera aswell, around 22 rolls whit the original i've heard
This pack should give us over 100 rolls :)
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#10 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:42 AM

I've heard about a dude here in Sweden that services beaulieus and can allso fix new batterys.
Think i got his mail somewhere.
These batterys should give us allot longer running time from our camera aswell, around 22 rolls whit the original i've heard
This pack should give us over 100 rolls :)


Dude, could you please be more precise? It's not wicked to confuse us all up, man! Do you mean your self-made battery pack will shot 22 rolls, or 100 rolls? Or do you mean Bjørn's refits lasting for 22 rolls, or 100 rolls. Or do you mean by "original" those Beaulieu battery packs shipped by the good French people of Romorantin? If so, then stay clear of that rumour-whisperer 'cause 22 rolls with those ain't happening this side of the universe, dude! A good condition battery pack of yesteryear with overnight-loading should hold for at least 5 cartridges, not really more.
CUaround, hoshi!


P.S.: On a serious note: What capacity does your battery have?

Edited by Michael Lehnert, 14 November 2007 - 08:44 AM.

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#11 Emil Soderman

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 09:27 AM

hehe :D Sorry for confusing you all, ill try to explaing what i ment.

Since i had other stuff to take care of, i couldnt complete the building of the battery pack myself
The info is just from the dude that had it completed really.

Maybe when the original batterys wore new they could power the camera for a good 22 rolls?
Anyway since we know this aint true anymore, you really need a fresh one.

The new pack is a simple 6 AA 1.2V 2500 mAh wired to output 3.6V from 3 batteries and 7.2V from 3+3 batteries basicly.
The man who got it all finished estimated a good 100 rolls of filming from this pack, if kept warm.
Im not really sure though, guess we will find out, got some spares just in case.

So no, this Björn will only fix old original batteris to work like they wore new as far as i know!

Hope that clarifies my rambling :lol:

Will be getting the test rolls end of this week, very excited to give it a try and see if everything holds upp!
Take care people!
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#12 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 02:00 AM

Although I'm a fan of longer life battery supplies, part of the fun and ease of super-8 is that the batteries are securely placed inside the camera, or in the case of a beaulieu 4008 camera, screwed into the side of the camera. If you are building an external battery supply, you may find it a bit inconvenient for shooting a lot of different set-ups quickly, unless the battery easily reaches the floor when the camera is mounted on a tripod. I find external batteries can be a bit cumbersome for run and gun work.

Set up the camera exactly as it is going to be used on a tripod and then find the optimal place for the external battery. Practice moving the camera both handheld and for panning and tilting on a tripod. Figure out where the optimal place is to attach your external battery before your shoot day. If your back up batteries are of a different design, you then have to figure out how much the back up batteries change the balance ballistics of your camera for both handheld and tripod work. It can be quite annoying to have to switch to a back up battery and find that because it is of a different size or perhaps attaches to the camera differently than the external battery that it forces one to have to shift the camera's center of gravity.

What might prove to be a good compromise, if you have two different styles of batteries you are using, is to use one when on a tripod, and the other one for non tripod work. Now optimize them both for best balance, and of course do this before the shoot day. One final note, the tripod you do all this experimenting with ahead of time should the actual tripod you are using on the day of your shoot.
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#13 Emil Soderman

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:18 AM

Thanks again Alessandro for some grate tips!

Actually the film arived today, so we will run tests all night!
The battery pack is done and seems to be working grate, the extra pack we had is of the same design, you just switch the AA batteris in the holder.

Yeah, we're trying to get one of the better tripods at school, and hope to have the ability to stick whit it for the entire shoot.
We have some cartoni tripods that are utter.. well, mighty bad!
Hope some Vinten will be free

Sorry, its not 22 rolls, its 8-12 rols whit the original 250mAh battery
So we should get 10x that whit 2500mAh around 80-120 somwhere.
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 01:22 PM

Sorry, its not 22 rolls, its 8-12 rols whit the original 250mAh battery
So we should get 10x that with 2500mAh around 80-120 somwhere.


It's not a linear relationship. I would guess you'll get through 8 - 15 cartridges if you don't leave the auto-exposure motor on
all the time, 5 - 10 cartridges if you leave the auto-exposure meter on part of the time.
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