Jump to content


Photo

Slide Film Rocks


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Evan Winter

Evan Winter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 202 posts
  • Director
  • Los Angeles

Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:56 PM

So I was going through some old stuff today and ran across two sets of slide film from a trip to Cuba. Instantly intrigued, I grabbed the slides and threw them up on a small viewer I had handy.

Wow and gorgeous! The images came alive. They feel so full and so vibrant that it almost comes across as 3D.

Now, I bring this up because I've been going on lately about how impressed I was when I recently viewed Red camera footage. I'm still impressed and I may very well be shooting my next music video (monday nov 19th) on the Red (I have the camera booked and I'm just sorting out the post workflow).

However, looking at those slides reminded me that film has that 'je ne sais quoi' that always manages to take me to a place that feels half memory and half dream and still the film sum, somehow and inexplicably, manages to be greater than even those two parts! Gorgeous...

Evan

P.S - After much price quoting etc I have discovered that a Red shoot in L.A. will cost me the same (almost to the dollar) as a Super 16mm film shoot in L.A.
  • 0

#2 Toby L Edwards

Toby L Edwards
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 143 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:51 PM

You should shoot some 120 Medium format Film. The Fuji B/W Acros Film and Fuji Velvia 50 is amazing.
If it where me. I would shoot S16, but I love Film.

Toby
  • 0

#3 Adam Thompson

Adam Thompson
  • Sustaining Members
  • 161 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 13 November 2007 - 02:33 PM

However, looking at those slides reminded me that film has that 'je ne sais quoi' that always manages to take me to a place that feels half memory and half dream and still the film sum, somehow and inexplicably, manages to be greater than even those two parts! Gorgeous...

Evan

P.S - After much price quoting etc I have discovered that a Red shoot in L.A. will cost me the same (almost to the dollar) as a Super 16mm film shoot in L.A.


Then why do anything else? Tangable mediums will always prevail when it comes to matters of the heart.
  • 0

#4 Joe Taylor

Joe Taylor
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 397 posts
  • Other

Posted 13 November 2007 - 05:04 PM

During a time-lapse workshop I taught last year, we shot a 100' roll of Fuji Provia through my Arri 2c then had transferred to video. Students picked and bought what ever film they wished, don't know why they wanted photographic film, but there was really not much difference in the other negative film we shot. If they could hve processed and projected that film, that could have been pretty sweet
  • 0

#5 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 13 November 2007 - 08:54 PM

You should shoot some 120 Medium format Film. The Fuji B/W Acros Film and Fuji Velvia 50 is amazing.
If it where me. I would shoot S16, but I love Film.

Toby


Try unwrapping an original 8x10 transparency fresh from the lab. It's photographic bliss.
  • 0

#6 Ken Minehan

Ken Minehan
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 168 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Singapore

Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:22 PM

HI guys, i was wandering, is there a slide film equivalent for motion picture? If so has anyone used it and how are the results?

thanks
Ken Minehan
  • 0

#7 Adam Thompson

Adam Thompson
  • Sustaining Members
  • 161 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:37 PM

HI guys, i was wandering, is there a slide film equivalent for motion picture? If so has anyone used it and how are the results?

thanks
Ken Minehan


Uh, reversal film stocks.
  • 0

#8 Fran Kuhn

Fran Kuhn
  • Sustaining Members
  • 352 posts
  • Other

Posted 14 November 2007 - 12:32 AM

. . .looking at those slides reminded me that film has that 'je ne sais quoi' that always manages to take me to a place that feels half memory and half dream and still the film sum, somehow and inexplicably, manages to be greater than even those two parts! Gorgeous...

Evan


Evan,

Your comment caught my attention because for the past three years I've been neck deep in digital still capture. I have owned seven pro-level digital cameras (currently the Canon 1Ds MKIIs and 1D MKIIIs) and worked with the amazing Phase One P45 back. The switch from film to digital has been very interesting, and digital has opened up many new options for shooting. And, after all this, digital makes me feel even more impressed with film.

I did a celebrity athlete shoot last week with my 1Ds MKII acting as a "Polaroid" camera, and used a Fuji GX680 with Kodak 400NC color neg for the hero stuff. Everyone said the digital shots were fantastic--until we got a look at the film! No one had seen a piece of film for a few years and they all were a bit surprised at what they saw. I heard a lot of, "Oh yeah. . .I remember what film looks like!" It is still hard to beat, IMO. I admit, I'm not ready to give back my CF cards, but I'm not ready to sell my Hasselblads yet, either.

One of my regular assistants often works with celeb photographer Mark Seliger when Mark shoots on the west coast. He says Mark brings everything from 35mm digital to 8x10 film cameras and often falls back on his trusty Pentax 67 film camera for the hero shots.

Also saw a reprint of this on the counter at Samys Camera in Pasadena:

http://www.kodak.com...900688a807b9764

-Fran
  • 0

#9 Toby L Edwards

Toby L Edwards
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 143 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 14 November 2007 - 11:18 AM

Try unwrapping an original 8x10 transparency fresh from the lab. It's photographic bliss.




Chris'
I would love to do some Large format work someday. I've actually been watching prices for equipment on Ebay. Christmas is right around the corner so who knows!!!

Fran'
Thanks for the link. What a great read!!!!!!

Adam'
Kodak 100D and Fuji Vivid 160 are Reversal/Slide films. The 100d is excellent and from what I've seen of the Vivid 160 it looks quite promising.


Toby
  • 0

#10 James Baker

James Baker
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 14 November 2007 - 09:56 PM

For me, using film is worth the cost/time/work issue. Not only is it incredibly beautiful with an exquisite tonal range, but the way the grain resolves an image gives it an organic feel and produces its own signature. And, in the end, you have a physical, analog archive.

I "still" shoot only reversal film, both 35mm and 120, with an old Leica and a Hasselblad, respectively. I used to work with 4x5 but admit I got lazy having to load holders ;). For exhibitions, I have my film frames drum scanned (on an Aztek PMT drum scanner) and edited in Photoshop, then printed digitally with a LightJet on photographic paper with analog chemistry. It's pretty much the same workflow as motion picture film: shoot, telecine, edit, then print. And with all the advantages of digital editing that glorious look of film. The best of both worlds.

Video/digital looks sterile and flat to me. However, in a commercial setting I realize it's really the most cost efficient way to go.

At the college where I teach we still start them out in an analog darkroom and then they go on to digital. Film skills are a good thing to have.

But as digital has now become ubiquitous I think expectations have become modified; just like MP3 versus CD versus vinyl, LCDs versus CRTs, etc..

I really love film; it's an amazing medium.

Edited by James Baker, 14 November 2007 - 09:58 PM.

  • 0

#11 Nick Mulder

Nick Mulder
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1023 posts
  • Other
  • Auckland, New Zealand

Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:19 PM

Chris'
I would love to do some Large format work someday. I've actually been watching prices for equipment on Ebay. Christmas is right around the corner so who knows!!!
Toby



Gear is getting very cheap - glass as always is still the major component of a set up though

Anyhoo - about 6 months ago I got myself a Sinar P 8x10 setup with a box of about 50 sheets of E64, still going strong (I had it lab tested), although I mostly shoot B+W and print in Platinum its nice to have in the fridge -

Ferrari stuff on a VW budget ...

There was a Mamiya 645, the new auto fancy pants everything body (was a back up body hardly used) going for $175 (us) at a local store the other day - mad prices ...
  • 0

#12 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 14 November 2007 - 11:19 PM

HI guys, i was wandering, is there a slide film equivalent for motion picture? If so has anyone used it and how are the results?

thanks
Ken Minehan

5285/7285 and Ektachrome E100VS are pretty much the same film. I asked John Pytlak about that after I had looked at all the technical data for both on Kodak's website and he confirmed that they're very similar.
  • 0

#13 Fran Kuhn

Fran Kuhn
  • Sustaining Members
  • 352 posts
  • Other

Posted 14 November 2007 - 11:29 PM

Video/digital looks sterile and flat to me. However, in a commercial setting I realize it's really the most cost efficient way to go.


Hello James,

I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post, but I just wanted to comment on the cost of digital from my own experience.

I agree digital can save a lot of money on many shoots, but my clients have been surprised to find that their digital still shoots (mostly print advertising and collateral) are billing at about 25-to-30 percent higher that a comparable film shoot. Part of the reason is the equipment costs (cameras/backs) are higher, and we now have to travel with at least one full-time digital tech and arrange to get all of the extra support gear (computers, monitors, etc) to remote locations. I'm seriously considering bringing two digital techs on the next big job because the First tech is often already well into OT while we're coming back from wherever we were shooting that day. We need the second tech to stay up all night sorting and processing because the ADs and client want to see everything the next morning!

I recently finished a 23-day brochure shoot for a Japanese motorcycle/ATV manufacturer, and the final tally of RAW files and processed TIFF files came in at 660 GB. Managing all of this data on location was a lot of work, and it got even more challenging when the shoot was finished. I am still burning backup DVDs of these files (in addition to archiving the same files on a pair of 1TB hard drives). In case you're wondering why DVDs in addition to the hard drives, it's because I had a little short circuit take out four daisy-chained LaCie 500GB drives this summer. DriveSavers in San Francisco quoted my between $400 up to $7,000 per 500GB drive to try and do a recovery, with no guarantee of success. Luckily, I had everything backed up x2 on eFilm Archival DVDs. Of course, now I have to spend the next few months transferring all of these files back to my new hard drives.

Like I was saying, film is hard to beat.

-Fran
  • 0

#14 Jonathan Bowerbank

Jonathan Bowerbank
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2815 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 15 November 2007 - 12:11 AM

5285/7285 and Ektachrome E100VS are pretty much the same film. I asked John Pytlak about that after I had looked at all the technical data for both on Kodak's website and he confirmed that they're very similar.


I've been really curious about this, so I'm glad to hear it. I've been meaning to get a 100' roll of motion picture reversal film for bulk loading :)
  • 0

#15 James Baker

James Baker
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:30 AM

Hello James,

I agree digital can save a lot of money on many shoots, but my clients have been surprised to find that their digital still shoots (mostly print advertising and collateral) are billing at about 25-to-30 percent higher that a comparable film shoot. Part of the reason is the equipment costs (cameras/backs) are higher, and we now have to travel with at least one full-time digital tech and arrange to get all of the extra support gear (computers, monitors, etc) to remote locations. I'm seriously considering bringing two digital techs on the next big job because the First tech is often already well into OT while we're coming back from wherever we were shooting that day. We need the second tech to stay up all night sorting and processing because the ADs and client want to see everything the next morning!

-Fran


Fran,

Your description makes complete sense.

I'm really not too savvy about the commercial world. Although I know a few people here who use Industrial Color on location and I know they pay dearly for that service. And I know that I pay dearly for drum scans and LightJet prints from the top studios here in LA. My early RA-4 prints cost a fraction of an equivalent sized LightJet print.

Archive/storage logistics are certainly an issue with digital. And then there's the failure factor of drives and basic digital incongruities. To a certain extent, I've had that to contend with it. The raw scan .tiff file needs to be archived, the (huge) layered .psd file needs to be archived, the final .tiff print to enlarger file needs to be archived. Burn backups on DVD. And, of course, still store the analog film file. It gets time consuming and tedious.

But what I also find interesting is that it seems commercial work is now expected to go beyond turning in a set of transparencies. It sounds like you are assumed to not only shoot and capture, but to deliver in various outputs, storage devices, and perhaps pre-press .pdf files, etc..(?)

I remember when E-6 film processing labs like A&I used to stay open until midnight for overnight turnarounds. And so instead, with digital, you have to labor overnight getting the files done; I see now the expenses piling up with digital shoots....

-James
  • 0

#16 Tony Marfisi

Tony Marfisi

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:03 PM

HI guys, i was wandering, is there a slide film equivalent for motion picture? If so has anyone used it and how are the results?

thanks
Ken Minehan


This looks interesting...

http://www.aandi.com/film_pro2.htm

Scroll to the bottom of the page to: Motion Picture Stock Film Processing. Someday I'll try a roll...

Take care,

tm

P.S. Long-time fan of the site--first post. I do not work for A&I, nor have I ever used them.
  • 0

#17 Andy_Alderslade

Andy_Alderslade
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1055 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London, UK

Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:12 PM

I agree slide film is great, it looks great and you get exactly what you want. With negative film, the printing process always make the end product underwhelming - thank goodness for scanning.

This looks interesting...

http://www.aandi.com/film_pro2.htm

Scroll to the bottom of the page to: Motion Picture Stock Film Processing. Someday I'll try a roll...


When they got the process up and running properly the results are great, I would try to post a few if I could remember how you can post pictures here again!
  • 0

#18 Oron Cohen

Oron Cohen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 212 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Tel-Aviv/London

Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:04 PM

Adam'
Kodak 100D and Fuji Vivid 160 are Reversal/Slide films. The 100d is excellent and from what I've seen of the Vivid 160 it looks quite promising.


Toby



Hey,

Just a small correction, as someone that got the opportunity to actually shoot a few roll's of the Vivid 160 I can positively say that this is a Negative film rather than a positive one.

http://www.fujifilmu...amp;product=160

As for the other comments that were raised here about the logic of film shooting, I couldn't agree more!

I am a big fan of reversal film (velvia100F and provia 400) and would prefer the film workflow in film making any day, in every chance that I have when I could persuade a Director\producer to shoot on film I make everything that I can to make it happen:-)

My last project on film was also my first on B&W(double-X)I have yet to see the materials but from the test's we made it's look great IMOH?

Oron.
  • 0

#19 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:37 PM

Wow and gorgeous! The images came alive. They feel so full and so vibrant that it almost comes across as 3D.


Just skimming the topic, but I'm surprised everyone seems to be overlooking the obvious: the experience of viewing a slide directly and viewing ANY image on a monitor are two completely different things. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Slide film typically has a very high density in order to hold up in projection, which means very solid blacks and rich color saturation. And the contrast ratio is relative to the light source you're viewing against, which means it can be insanely high. Resolutions being equal, viewing a higher contrast ratio with rich blacks and rich colors will ALWAYS blow away milky blacks and low contrast...

Take those same slides and transfer them at 4K and view them on a monitor next to RED images. I doubt you'd have that same immersive memory/dream-like experience when viewing reversal images on a monitor. Burn RED images to film and make a dye-transfer print, mount them in slide casings and view them on your slide viewer -- then see what kind of experience it creates.

I'm not "dissing" film or defending the RED One; just pointing out an unfair comparison. People sometimes forget that the presentation is part of the experience of any artwork, and has to be taken into account.
  • 0


Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Tai Audio

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Glidecam

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Metropolis Post

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Opal

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

CineTape

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Glidecam

CineLab

Metropolis Post

Paralinx LLC

The Slider

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Tai Audio

Technodolly

Opal

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Ritter Battery